|
Post by vmathes on Aug 22, 2023 17:25:58 GMT
Hello, I'm looking for a reproduction of a "Patton saber/sword" (I'd love an original, but am not willing to spend original prices!). I've read good reviews on the Windlass model that is widely available, and of course it's stocked by all the usual suspects - Museum Replicas, Atlanta Cutlery, etc. and can be had sharpened from KoA. Prices are consistent across these vendors, but then I ran across this site: legendaryarms.com/products/general-patton-sword-model-1931Do anyone have experience with this retailer? They say it's a Windlass sword, but it looks different from those pictured by other vendors. At over a hundred dollars lower in price than comparable retailers, I am both excited at a great deal and fearful that the price suggests something is amiss. If its truly the same product, I can sharpen it myself for that kind of savings, but I'm always leery when something is priced that much lower than competitors. Thanks V
|
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,124
Member is Online
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 22, 2023 17:39:58 GMT
The pictures there are from windlass.com. The orange background or light makes the backstrip on the grip looking brown. IIRC this price was common not long ago, I bought mine in the same price range inn Germany. Looks like prices were raised not long ago and here they didn't do it yet. Warning: It's a sturdy and heavy sword for a cavalry attack, nothing for fencing. On the other side: All your other sword will feel lighter and more agile soon.
|
|
|
Post by vmathes on Aug 22, 2023 18:02:02 GMT
So this is not some fly-by-night company? I think I know what I'm getting; I briefly had one years ago (don't recall why I sold it) and liked it. I read everywhere that it's not for fencing, but in my memory it felt very much like my fencing saber in terms of hand position - obviously not balance! Anyway, when I had that Windlass Patton repro, compared to an 1860 cavalry saber, I thought the Patton handled more like what I was used to (as an olympic and rapier fencer) than the '60 did. It will be interesting to have one again and compare!
|
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,124
Member is Online
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 22, 2023 18:06:46 GMT
Sorry, I don't have any experience with legendaryarms.com, I just wanted to say that the pictures and the price aren't necessarily red flags. Compared to my cavalry saber repros the Patton is less blade heavy but it's very hilt heavy, so the blade seems to be relative more agile. But it's made for a certain way of cavalry attack with a static grip, a hand-lance some say. My rapiers are different, no to speak of a fencing sport epee I assume.
|
|
|
Post by vmathes on Aug 22, 2023 18:54:04 GMT
Yeah, the hilt weight is probably why it felt (relatively) more . . . not light, but its weight distribution was more familiar than the cut-focused 1860. It felt to me like Patton (and committee) had taken an Olympic saber and just scaled it up to combat effectiveness. Definitely intended for thrusting primacy (as nearly all early 20th C swords were), but I think regardless of whether it was practiced in the field, that blade lends itself well to both cut & thrust and if it were sharpened would make an authoritative cutter as well.
|
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,124
Member is Online
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 22, 2023 19:01:42 GMT
|
|
|
Post by vmathes on Aug 22, 2023 19:38:38 GMT
I think I've seen these before, but thanks for the refresher; I always love to see original docs like this. I love this line: "the surest parry is a disabled opponent" :-P
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Aug 22, 2023 21:13:50 GMT
Hello, I'm looking for a reproduction of a "Patton saber/sword" (I'd love an original, but am not willing to spend original prices!). I've read good reviews on the Windlass model that is widely available, and of course it's stocked by all the usual suspects - Museum Replicas, Atlanta Cutlery, etc. and can be had sharpened from KoA. Prices are consistent across these vendors, but then I ran across this site: legendaryarms.com/products/general-patton-sword-model-1931Do anyone have experience with this retailer? They say it's a Windlass sword, but it looks different from those pictured by other vendors. At over a hundred dollars lower in price than comparable retailers, I am both excited at a great deal and fearful that the price suggests something is amiss. If its truly the same product, I can sharpen it myself for that kind of savings, but I'm always leery when something is priced that much lower than competitors. Thanks V They got the model year scrambled, it's 1913, not 1931 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1913_Cavalry_Saber
|
|
|
Post by vmathes on Aug 22, 2023 22:27:18 GMT
Hello, I'm looking for a reproduction of a "Patton saber/sword" (I'd love an original, but am not willing to spend original prices!). I've read good reviews on the Windlass model that is widely available, and of course it's stocked by all the usual suspects - Museum Replicas, Atlanta Cutlery, etc. and can be had sharpened from KoA. Prices are consistent across these vendors, but then I ran across this site: legendaryarms.com/products/general-patton-sword-model-1931Do anyone have experience with this retailer? They say it's a Windlass sword, but it looks different from those pictured by other vendors. At over a hundred dollars lower in price than comparable retailers, I am both excited at a great deal and fearful that the price suggests something is amiss. If its truly the same product, I can sharpen it myself for that kind of savings, but I'm always leery when something is priced that much lower than competitors. Thanks V They got the model year scrambled, it's 1913, not 1931 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_1913_Cavalry_SaberYes. That's another little detail that gives me pause. I mean, it's a simple enough transposition error, an innocent typo most likely, but still it could reflect on the level of attention to detail from the company as a whole. V
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Aug 23, 2023 3:27:21 GMT
Yes. That's another little detail that gives me pause. I mean, it's a simple enough transposition error, an innocent typo most likely, but still it could reflect on the level of attention to detail from the company as a whole. V
I feel that Patton was entirely too influenced by the French point of view on how a cavalry saber should be used. The result, IMHO, is a weapon designed entirely for the charge, that will only work optimally if you have a good horse galloping under you (and probably break your wrist or arm when it does).
|
|
|
Post by vmathes on Aug 23, 2023 18:05:47 GMT
Treeslicer, That's a fine looking saber you got! I do like the nearly straight blade & of course the hilt is far prettier than the Patton. It's clear that the Patton was intended solely to thrust on the charge, but it appeals to me precisely because it retains such a robust double edged blade as opposed to the British 1908, which from what little I've read was entirely devoted to the thrust at the full expense of cutting ability
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Aug 25, 2023 3:54:39 GMT
Treeslicer, That's a fine looking saber you got! I do like the nearly straight blade & of course the hilt is far prettier than the Patton. It's clear that the Patton was intended solely to thrust on the charge, but it appeals to me precisely because it retains such a robust double edged blade as opposed to the British 1908, which from what little I've read was entirely devoted to the thrust at the full expense of cutting ability Yup. The more I look at these things, the more I wonder if, romantic that he was, the most important French influence on Patton was actually Alexandre Dumas.
|
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,124
Member is Online
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 25, 2023 5:05:55 GMT
I confess I had a Zorro rapier in mind when I bought my Patton. Surprise! It's nooot. But I understood the idea of fighting in a cavalry charge then. And as I said before, all your other swords become lighter...
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Aug 25, 2023 13:09:09 GMT
Below is a video you should watch. The M1913 has nothing to do with French, and probably based on the Swedish M1893 that the LT was introduced to while stationed in Sweden.
I find the M1913 rather heavy, harder to manage and not suited for duelling. But it was never intended to be used as such. I also included a short video I made using the M1913. It was made to show the advantage of a thrust in that it has greater reach than a cut. It also has a better chance of penetrating heavier clothing. The interesting thing that I found in the video is an advantage the double edged the M1913 has over a single edge, say the P1908. The weight of the jug when falling drastically enlarged the wound channel that can be seen in the video.
|
|
|
Post by vmathes on Aug 25, 2023 18:04:44 GMT
Oh yes - Dumas and the Disney movies of his swashbuckling tale are what got me into fencing & swordsmanship! PGandy, I've seen both those videos - I was a tad disappointed that Mr. Easton didn't have a Patton as an exemplar for this video and instead used a British sword that, by my understanding, has a very different blade profile. But American swords are not really his forte, as he's said before, and the sword itself was not really the focal point of his video, but the book (which I want to get) Your video does show how much that edge would contribute to a blade cutting out of a thrusting wound and make it an eviscerating experience for the soldier on the receiving end! V
|
|
|
Post by squalembrato on Aug 25, 2023 19:25:29 GMT
I have a Windlass Patton saber and it's the worst back yard cutter in my collection. The edge profile is so wide angle (like an axe) and the cross section is so thick and and the blade so narrow it is difficult to sharpen. I don't care how much you use 600, 800, 1000 grit paper and a leather strop with green paste--that thing is a bottle batter--not a slicer.
|
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,124
Member is Online
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 25, 2023 19:40:46 GMT
We all agree in the Patton not being a slicer!
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Aug 25, 2023 21:05:12 GMT
I’ll third that. But it wasn’t intended to be a cutter. I too was disappointed that Easton had no M1913 and agree that his knowledge of American swords is limited. His review of the USMC NCO Sabre was way off base. In the way the M1913’s double edged blades cuts during a thrust leads me to believe it may cut a person in two during penetration at a full gallop, if not close enough for all practical purposes.
I can find a few reports on the P1908. It was said that they worked well when used as intended. However, when the trooper got into a tight they would revert back to the hacking/slashing method, at that point the P1908 failed.
|
|
|
Post by Spathologist on Aug 25, 2023 22:24:17 GMT
The repros are horrible representations of the M1913. The blade is, comparatively, just a steel bar. The edge profile is far too thick, distal taper almost non-existent. The grip is too large and square.
They are okay visual copies if you want something to put on a wall, but are very poor from a practical standpoint.
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on Aug 26, 2023 0:17:17 GMT
I’ll agree with you to some extent. The blade does feel like a steel bar. But does the original? It does on the P1908. The grip is squared. As for being too large, that will depend on one’s hand. Keeping in mind that Windlass’ version is a repro and repros have a reputation of having off measurements. With what few measurements that I can find of the original Windlass isn’t too far off, close enough for government work anyway. Keep in mind the original measurements are from the drawing board, mine are actual. Original Windlass OAL: 41.5” 41.75” Blade: 35.25” 35” Blade width: 1.175” 1.175” Blade thickness: .298” .298-.200” (1” from tip) From www.springfieldedge.com/saber_m-1913.html As for the grip here is an original compared to mine: That’s the best I could do. Photo of original hilt is by Cruacious on reddit. ![Repro Hilt.jpg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/fHQBnJWvllFmZfmxMcfL.png)
|
|