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Post by crazyjons on Aug 6, 2023 14:21:20 GMT
Recently acquired my first nihonto, the blade is almost perfectly symmetrical when viewed lengthwise. I started looking at the cutting edges of my various reproduction katanas and noticed most of them are ground/polished unevenly or biased to one side. As in the ji is slightly wider on one side than the other placing the ha off center.
I've watched a ton of videos and read many reviews and this is never discussed. It is very difficult to photograph this effect because of reflections, but it seems to greatly affect edge alignment during cutting effectively making a blade right or left handed!
Has anyone noticed this before?
Thanks, Jon.
For the record: 3 ronin katana dojo pro 2 rk clay tempered 1 ronin hanzo series ryujin gunto type 98 (pretty even) 1 hanbon t10 (very wonky) 3 ebay/Amazon blades 2 dragon king. The DK hana katana is what prompted this question as its blade is very uneven and I was expecting it to be on the nicer side.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 6, 2023 15:16:01 GMT
You mean like this (very exaggerated)?
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 6, 2023 17:22:28 GMT
I am not an expert with katanas but I have to ask if they, to some extent, if don’t they resemble European middle age swords in that they were handmade and lack the perfection of 21th century production tolerances?
What you are describing is the lack of symmetry and in the case you are talking about should not affect the cutting ability. I have run into the same on other swords/knives and they continue to cut fine. The subject has come up before on the forum.
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Post by crazyjons on Aug 6, 2023 21:56:05 GMT
You mean like this (very exaggerated)?
Yes, exactly like that! Some are worse than others and there's no Rhyme or Reason which side they are biased towards. But like I said my one actual nihanto is even on both sides. Maybe that is a reason why it takes years of practice to become a togoshi(sword polisher). I think on my 2-500$ production swords it bust just be a worker with a belt sander doing most of the profile work. I guess regarding cutting with it that unevenness means that the blade basically lines up in a different spot with the handle on each sword, so I can actually make it deliberate effort to tilt the handle to one side of the other and it will cut beautifully, but if I just pick up the sword and cut without paying attention to that I have the water bottle bouncing across the yard effect!
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larason2
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Post by larason2 on Aug 7, 2023 2:09:07 GMT
If a Nihonto is professionally polished by a togishi, then the profile is perfect, because that is part of their art. You're right though that the Chinese replicas of Japanese swords sometimes have imperfect finishing. Part of this is that swords often come out of hardening warped, and while a togishi knows how to correct that, I wouldn't expect a Chinese finisher to put the same amount of care into rendering the sword perfectly. Some swords have only one bevel, which is also sometimes called a chisel grind. It's a separate skill to cut with a sword with one bevel vs. one with two.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 7, 2023 8:13:40 GMT
I know from experience that one side is easier to grind than the other (probably depending on ones handedness or maybe the grinding setup). Many if not all cheap chinese knives I have came unevenly ground on the cutting edge, and all seem to have the bias to the same side. It does need more concentration and skill to do it symmetrically. Going quickly leads to errors. They probably could do it but don't have enough time or maybe don't care enough. Unless the edge is really off center, for me the asymmetry does not mess with edge alignment as much, but it makes blades steer during a cut.
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Post by crazyjons on Aug 7, 2023 13:57:17 GMT
Stabby advanced a theory that I can live with. That blades that are slightly warped they're going to have a tendency to get polished unevenly or ground unevenly, that would explain the exact type of inconsistency I'm talking about because it seems to be like worse in the middle usually and not as bad at the two ends of cutting edge. Regarding the idea that it is maybe authentic to have the unevenness in the same way that Western swords are Hand Forged and antique European blades frequently have waves and dips, I don't think that was usually the case. Like someone else said that's part of Japanese culture to strive for perfection in an art and sword making has been considered a high art in Japan since maybe almost 1,000 or 1100 ad. From what little I know it seems that their quality only slipped toward the end of World War II. Going out on a limb a little I'd say in a comparison with Western swords this is kind of like the argument about reproduction Western Swords not having enough distal taper. I am asking this in reference to relatively cheap Chinese reproductions, not wall hangers but quite inexpensive nonetheless.
Jon
I guess I feel like I have a large enough representative sample and this is a common enough problem that I'm curious why it's never mentioned in any YouTube reviews or SBG reviews you know?
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 7, 2023 14:51:07 GMT
Regarding the idea that it is maybe authentic to have the unevenness in the same way that Western swords are Hand Forged and antique European blades frequently have waves and dips, I don't think that was usually the case. Like someone else said that's part of Japanese culture to strive for perfection in an art and sword making has been considered a high art in Japan since maybe almost 1,000 or 1100 ad. I guess I feel like I have a large enough representative sample and this is a common enough problem that I'm curious why it's never mentioned in any YouTube reviews or SBG reviews you know? I can’t argue. But my interpretation of the problem is it is with Japanese like swords and at a fraction of the price. As to it not being mentioned, I have and more than once. But I think most people are unaware of the problem and it goes unnoticed. I first noticed this with Windlass after obtaining a Work Sharp and the guides gave it away when one side was sharpening differently. With my kukris whether Nepalese or Indian the issue exists to some extent that I don’t need something like a WS to tell me. While aesthetically unappealing, although only one side can be seen at a time, I find no issues with cutting.
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Post by crazyjons on Aug 7, 2023 15:21:52 GMT
Thanks for saying that. I find that both a relief and a little bit embarrassing because if the unevenness and blade profile doesn't affect cutting it just means I'm not very good at Edge alignment! LOL
In the process of sharpening my windlass type XIV I definitely noticed some thick spots and thin spots, nothing too extreme but it really verifies to me that it was handmade. I would love to compare an Albion that is CNC machined.
I would also like to own more real authentic Swords not reproductions but I don't think I would feel good about actually using them at all, so I would be acquiring them purely as objects of Art.
Jon
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 7, 2023 15:47:01 GMT
Thanks for saying that. I find that both a relief and a little bit embarrassing because if the unevenness and blade profile doesn't affect cutting it just means I'm not very good at Edge alignment! LOL In the process of sharpening my windlass type XIV I definitely noticed some thick spots and thin spots, nothing too extreme but it really verifies to me that it was handmade. I would love to compare an Albion that is CNC machined. I would also like to own more real authentic Swords not reproductions but I don't think I would feel good about actually using them at all, so I would be acquiring them purely as objects of Art. Jon A little warning from me: The Windlass XIV is a very unforgiving blade for cutting, at least for me it is one of the hardest blade to get good cuts with. You can definately see the hammer marks on the Windlass', and I think, this is waht you mean. Some spots are thinner, others thicker. CNC made swords are pretty uniform, unless the one putting on the final grind had a bad day.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 7, 2023 17:17:20 GMT
Strange my XIV cut like a champ from the word go. I can’t remember if MRL sharpened it, or me. It was on sale for ≈90 USD. Then within two weeks it was back on sale as a closeout for a few dollars less, not making me happy. They have brought it back and when I see the new price I shudder. Mine has always been a great cutter although it now remains on the wall, like so many others.
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 7, 2023 18:07:40 GMT
I bought it for 100€, 3ish years ago, now it's like 250€ here as well. It needs to be much sharper to get nice cuts on bottles than any of my other swords. Not that it is bad, it's just a bit harder to cut with it than with a more cut centric blade shape, X for example. It feels like there is less leeway around the CoP. It is my only sword where I can get cuts that only cuts half and rips the rest of the way on bad days.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 7, 2023 20:49:11 GMT
I bought it for 100€, 3ish years ago, now it's like 250€ here as well. It needs to be much sharper to get nice cuts on bottles than any of my other swords. Not that it is bad, it's just a bit harder to cut with it than with a more cut centric blade shape, X for example. It feels like there is less leeway around the CoP. It is my only sword where I can get cuts that only cuts half and rips the rest of the way on bad days. Now you went and did it. Yesterday I had one of my few cutting sessions with a repro US M1813 sword that I bought back before the pandemic. I can probably count the sessions on one hand using it. Today I had planned to continue with a heavy walled 1 gallon cloro jug. It handled 2.5 L plastic bottles fine but failed on the cloro. All of my 19th and later dismounted military swords do. The cavalry sabres will. With the failure I decided to hang the M1813 up for a few days before trying again. Since I had everything out and not completely sworded out and remembering your post and that I hadn’t had my XIV out for a few years I decided to retrieve it for one quick session. It cut like a champ as always, halving 2.5 L plastic bottles (I would trust it with 3.0 L if I had any) and finished off targeting another 1 gallon cloro bottle. I believe with shield it makes a good combat system.
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Post by crazyjons on Aug 8, 2023 1:29:09 GMT
I bought my XVI windlass from KOA on sale I think it was $219 plus shipping. I did not opt for their sharpening service but did it myself and it took many hours. Thank God we have a 2x72 variable speed grinder at work! Still spent quite a long time with a 600 grit Diamond Stone and finished off with a leather strop belt on the Belt grinder. It is now shaving Sharp but it definitely makes that kind of crack or pop sound when you cut a bottle with it that I don't get with the katana's at all.
I think Windlass makes an excellent and sturdy product, have cut steel shaving cream cans with their Naval Cutlass with zero Edge deformation. All of my double edged European swords make that pop sound when they cut a water bottle.
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larason2
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Post by larason2 on Aug 8, 2023 1:36:00 GMT
I think I watched a video on this (maybe others will remember it better), but European swords, which are pretty elastic, tend to vibrate as they move through the air, so when you cut with them, you get an undulating pattern through the material being cut. That's probably what makes the pop sound on a water bottle. Whereas Japanese swords tend to slice cleanly through the material without undulating (they aren't very elastic at all).
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 8, 2023 8:21:14 GMT
I think I watched a video on this (maybe others will remember it better), but European swords, which are pretty elastic, tend to vibrate as they move through the air, so when you cut with them, you get an undulating pattern through the material being cut. That's probably what makes the pop sound on a water bottle. Whereas Japanese swords tend to slice cleanly through the material without undulating (they aren't very elastic at all). They shouldn't be this flexible that they vibrate in the air like those swords in Kung-Fu movies. This flex only becomes apparent when it hits resistance, so when you hit the target, the blade flexes (every blade does, even katanas, only the degree is different). Any sharp enough blade will slice cleanly through a bottle when you hit it right though. A very flexible machete cuts bottles without you feeling it and without emparting much energy to the target at all. I do not own any Nihonto, so I can't really say anything about it specifically. My Jian is much more flexible (and also thicker) than the XIV but cuts much easier for me, so flexible blade does not mean a bad cut, to be honest the XIV is probably one of the stiffest swords I own right now. As I said, it's not that it's a bad cutter, only more "temperamental" for me. I need to add though, that the XIV is my only cut-and-thrust sword, all my others are more cut-centric blade profiles.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 8, 2023 12:41:29 GMT
I agree with mrstabbby. At one time Windlass had problems with flexible blades and some could not support their weight. When held horizontally they would sag. Their XIV as quite stiff. My Latin made machetes are flexible but my best cutters on light targets. I don’t not expect them to go through a heavy wall gallon jug but will go through the top, mouth, and shoulder of a free standing 500 ml Listerine bottle leaving it standing. I have no other knives that will do that and yet those knives are my most flexible. It is the lack of mass that prevents slicing a gallon jug in half. It’s also the reason my infantry swords fail to do so. As a whole I do not find a problem cutting with my more flexible blades as much as the mass, or rather the lack of. Energeia is the word. However, a thrust is a different story.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 8, 2023 14:43:17 GMT
I find lighter blades cut bottles better, because I can get more speed and therefore more energy in the swing than with a heavier blade. On harder targets mass begins to matter as well though, so on something like tatami or rolled newspaper with "bone" you also need enough mass behind the swing to get through. I don't have these big milk containers, so I have no real context there. Bottles need sharp, speedy blades especially the bottles for carbonated drinks, these are thicker. Coke bottles are the hardest plastic where I am. Something I saw when going over my new project: A Cold Steel Jungle Machete, where it looks like someone had to correct the grind because it wasn't centered. The other side has a clean bevel, this one a sudden secondary bevel but the edge is centered like this.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 8, 2023 15:18:33 GMT
I have a CS Jungle Machete. It’s efficient. I’m familiar with that type of edge, and thought a similar issue was what we were talking about. While not looking good I have found no real issue with its cutting ability.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 8, 2023 16:00:37 GMT
I have a CS Jungle Machete. It’s efficient. I’m familiar with that type of edge, and thought a similar issue was what we were talking about. While not looking good I have found no real issue with its cutting ability. I read some posts from you about machetes and remembered I had much fun with these in my youth but they are lost to time now, so I went forth and bought a bag of cheap machetes for fun. The CS being the most expensive, most were under 20€ and I plan on modifying them a bit. New grips, maybe add some distal taper. The CS was the only one that came with this corrective grind. But I plan to make my own thread about it when I am ready.
Sorry for derailing the thread a bit, but there is one thing I need to ask, you might be able to answer. Of the machetes I bought, a good percentage were Tramontina and they have a clear coat on them as rust prevention (and I remember this same coating being on some machetes 25-30 years ago), do you know what this is? Since I would like to change the blade profile on some, I'd like to reapply the coating if possible, I like it better than the black finish on the CS one.
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