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Post by larason2 on Aug 7, 2023 20:42:23 GMT
Alkanes and cycloalkanes are organic solvents. pH is more complicated than just saying "acidic" for organic solvents, because not all of them can act as hydrogen donors or acceptors. Most of them can accept or donate a proton though, so most organic solvents can be thought of as mildly basic or acidic. Aeration, say through a spray, causes significant disolution of the atmosphere through which it is sprayed, so you would expect some oxygen in the solution, at least temporarily.
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Post by madirish on Aug 7, 2023 23:23:59 GMT
Alkanes and cycloalkanes are non polar solvents and should pose no risk to steel (alkanes are the hydrophobic part that offer protection to metal!). The rest of the ingredients in WD-40 are basically mineral oil, CO2 and naptha. WD-40 is not going to negatively affect a sword blade.
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Post by eastman on Aug 7, 2023 23:59:46 GMT
and that reference requires either a strong oxidizing agent or electrochemistry to dissolve metal. That isn't going to happen from any of these products - no one formulates a rust preventative by adding a lot of halogens and other strong oxidizers.
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Post by larason2 on Aug 8, 2023 1:32:34 GMT
I'm not disputing that WD40 is probably safe, there have been more than one sword and gun owner that I have known that use it regularly for maintenance, and haven't seemed to have had any negative effect on their sword or gun. That being said, it doesn't stand to reason that all "organic solvents" never allow rust, or are safe in all contexts and finishes. Water doesn't rust a sword, it is a relatively polar solvent that facilitates the action of oxygen in the atmosphere, which is a powerful oxidizing agent, and the iron in the sword is converted to iron oxide (rust). Now, I've sprayed exterior door hinges with WD40, and came back later to find them rusted, so it isn't perfect for preventing rust. Personally, I think that plain oil or wax is more protective (at the very least, you seem to end up with more oil in the joint!). Now, with a new product such as Eezox, for which we have no idea what's in it, should we take the risk that it won't affect the finish or cause rust when we have at least a few obviously safe alternatives? Even for WD40, plain oil is more hydrophobic than any other organic solvent (otherwise those solvents wouldn't solvate effectively), such as naphtha or hexanes (which is an alkane), so why not just use plain oil? Just because they are more non-polar than water doesn't mean they are perfectly non polar, otherwise we wouldn't be able to use them for chemical reactions (and some chemical reactions require organic solvents). Not many chemical reactions happen in oil, so really it's more of a spectrum. Also, If a sword is clean, why does it need a cleaner? Plain oil is also pretty good at cleaning some things, so why use an organic solvent? You can actually also use soap and water to clean a sword, and if you dry it quickly it's unlikely to rust. Also, some people oil a sword, and come back later and find it has rusted in its scabbard (say, in very humid environments). Still, shouldn't we use the best technique for preventing rust available? There's a reason sodium metal is transported in oil and not WD40! So it's one thing to say something is safe if we have personal experience or know what's in it, it's another to say something is ok when we don't really know what it is. In the absence of years of experience of someone using Eezox to clean swords, I'd stick to what I know is probably safe, and personally, I avoid products with organic solvents.
Still, there's personal preference here. Just because WD40 might not be as good at preventing rust as oil doesn't mean you can't use it, just like it doesn't mean you can't use soap and water. It's your sword after all! To say soap and water isn't safe probably isn't totally true, it all depends how you use it. I wouldn't WD40 a sword and leave it for a year without checking it in a humid environment! But then, I wouldn't do that with oil either.
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Post by eastman on Aug 8, 2023 3:18:00 GMT
WD-40 (despite the current level of mythic beliefs) is neither a lubricant or a rust preventative. The "WD" stands for "Water Displacement". It is intended as a solvent to displace water off of metal surfaces. It has a little bit of utility as a cleaner, but doesn't leave a protective film.
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 8, 2023 7:11:14 GMT
I'm not disputing that WD40 is probably safe, there have been more than one sword and gun owner that I have known that use it regularly for maintenance, and haven't seemed to have had any negative effect on their sword or gun. That being said, it doesn't stand to reason that all "organic solvents" never allow rust, or are safe in all contexts and finishes. Water doesn't rust a sword, it is a relatively polar solvent that facilitates the action of oxygen in the atmosphere, which is a powerful oxidizing agent, and the iron in the sword is converted to iron oxide (rust). No, the oxygen forms H3O+ which are the reactive species, so the water is directly involved (or any other polar solvent).
Now, I've sprayed exterior door hinges with WD40, and came back later to find them rusted, so it isn't perfect for preventing rust. Personally, I think that plain oil or wax is more protective (at the very least, you seem to end up with more oil in the joint!). Now, with a new product such as Eezox, for which we have no idea what's in it, should we take the risk that it won't affect the finish or cause rust when we have at least a few obviously safe alternatives? Even for WD40, plain oil is more hydrophobic than any other organic solvent (otherwise those solvents wouldn't solvate effectively), such as naphtha or hexanes (which is an alkane), so why not just use plain oil?
The solvents are used in the spray to make the oil spread easier and to make it stick better. Also some things just arent soluable in oil and you won't be able to clean these off with something apolar like oil.
Just because they are more non-polar than water doesn't mean they are perfectly non polar, otherwise we wouldn't be able to use them for chemical reactions (and some chemical reactions require organic solvents). Not many chemical reactions happen in oil, so really it's more of a spectrum.
Oil is just very long hydrocarbons. Like the solvent alkanes used but non volatile.
It isn't the organic vs non organic, it is polar vs aplolar (I wrote it wrong yesterdayin my post). In an apolar solvent That only consists of CH3-(CH2)n-CH3 you need much more agressive reagents to make anything happen, that is why they protect from rust, because they don't form Oxonium or other free radical species with oxygen, anything with an -OH group does, water, ethanol, isopropanol, but like you said as long as you wipe it fast enough.
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 8, 2023 7:15:32 GMT
and that reference requires either a strong oxidizing agent or electrochemistry to dissolve metal. That isn't going to happen from any of these products - no one formulates a rust preventative by adding a lot of halogens other and strong oxidizers. "Try our new halogenated oil, it dissolves your sword, you and the ozone layer!"
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Post by eastman on Aug 9, 2023 2:26:43 GMT
halogenated solvents like dichloromethane are really good de-greasers, so they will leave your blade extra clean and ready to rust
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Post by ranstone on Aug 13, 2023 5:51:58 GMT
This has become a very enlightening thread. Thank you all, please continue.
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