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Post by ragebot on Jul 20, 2023 19:53:09 GMT
So I have been buying stuff like cheap Katanas and Wakizashi and using a Work Sharp sharpener have been pleased with the results cutting milk jugs filled with water. Not to mention for a very small investment have also been pleased with how I am progressing on the learning curve. One thing I have noticed is there is not a lot of information about ninja swords. From what little I know they seem to be straighter than things like Katanas or a Wakizashi and more the size of a Wakizashi. Is there more to it than this and can anyone suggest a source for a decent ninja sword.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jul 20, 2023 20:30:18 GMT
Like the official secret agent badge ninja swords are a myth. The myth has a short wakizashi length straight blade, a very long handle and a square tsuba. And it's black of course.
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Post by larason2 on Jul 20, 2023 21:40:55 GMT
Andi is right. No such swords were used in Japan before they were popularized in the post war years, perhaps to help fund the tourism business! A lot of other ninja myths were popularized around then too.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jul 21, 2023 5:24:25 GMT
IIRC there exists a newspaper cartoon about the Crimean war or at least many decades before the 1960s ninja hype that shows a ninjato, not in connection with ninjaism, just as a Japanese or Asian sword. So swords like this might have existed earlier and became later the pattern for ninjato.
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Post by curiomansion on Jul 21, 2023 7:19:29 GMT
If you can see the sword, it's not a ninja sword. Ninja swords are meant to be felt not seen.
Therefore, no one actually knows what they really look like!
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jul 21, 2023 10:53:44 GMT
And when it's dark?
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Post by freq on Jul 21, 2023 11:59:12 GMT
correct me if im wrong here, but i believe its a sword that ninjas use, lol ..... this one is super mythologized have heard everything from repurposed broken katana to ninjato to wakashi used in katana scabbard so other end could be storage and faster on draw, think there are as many stories as there are wanna be ninja schools (80s kid so totally wanted to be a ninja), growing up in martial arts world heard soooo many differing tales over past 40 years it would make your head spin, have to say would be a dead giveaway if they had a sword that was obviously different to any other sword being carried at the time, would be like carrying a Moorish sword in England during the crusades, gonna generate a few questions and not conducive to stealth or espionage ,imagine being stopped by local guard carrying ninjato and trying to explain "what my sword looks weird? no im not a ninja my sword smith just cant do curved blades", lol
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Post by freq on Jul 21, 2023 12:01:05 GMT
Like the official secret agent badge ninja swords are a myth. The myth has a short wakizashi length straight blade, a very long handle and a square tsuba. And it's black of course. what secret agents dont have a badge, next you'll be saying the don't have licenses to kill (rofl)
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 21, 2023 14:06:29 GMT
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jul 21, 2023 14:48:45 GMT
Since ninjas were primarily spies, a "ninja" sword would be whatever kind of sword the locals had that would be so commonplace so as to not attract any attention. Same with their clothing: the wore whatever would blend in and not stand out in any way.
Therefore, any sword can be a ninja sword.
Remember, "Ninja " is a verb, not a noun. It's an activity that certain people performed for pay.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jul 21, 2023 14:56:58 GMT
Perhaps it was a trick: "Look at that guy wearing the official ninja dress, sword and badge! That can't be a ninja cause they're spies in disguise!" Taataaa!
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Post by larason2 on Jul 21, 2023 17:49:44 GMT
Ninja usually refers to the specially trained Japanese tribes that used those skills around the time of the shimabara rebellion. They are well documented to have used wakizashis and katanas like everyone else. Since ancient times, however, there have been straight, single bladed japanese swords called chokuto. The idea that a small chokuto-like sword was called a ninjato and used by ninjas originates from the post war period as far as I know.
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Post by ragebot on Jul 21, 2023 23:38:50 GMT
Just finished reading what wiki has to say about the term ninja. Seems the term ninja is sorta made up word by Americans in the 1950s and popularized in movies, comics, cartoons, and the like and probably was not really the best term for me to use in my OP. On the other hand as early as the 500s in Japan the term shinobi was used to describe warriors who functioned as what some peeps would call a ninja. They were basically spies and trouble makers who infiltrated enemy positions and gathered intel or messed up stuff. Around the 800s manuals appeared describing shinobi training. Arson was a big hit as it could cause lots of problems for enemies. Later more manuals appeared with more training methods. There were also descriptions of some weapons. What were called flat round stones were used to distract the enemy so the shinobi could safely flee and the claim is made this was the precursor to the shuriken. They also made caltrops to slow down enemies chasing them. As was mentioned before the sword used was far shorter than a katana but the scabbard was made long with a hole at the bottom. The hole served at least two purposes. First it could be used as a breathing tube/snorkel when hiding under water. The manuals also mention putting dried cow dung or even clay dust in the bottom of the scabbard which could be blown out into an enemy's face. It was also a place other small items could be stored. Even to day in the Hollywood version a "ninja sword" has a square tsuba that seems abnormally large. The manuals mention that the scabbard could be leaned against a wall and the tsuba used as a step to help get over the wall (both the sword and scabbard were industrial strength for obvious reasons). In some ways this was similar to the Russian trench shovel which not only could be used as a shovel to dig but with the sharpened edges as an axe to chop down trees or humans; as well as a cooking plate over a fire. In fact the manuals devote a lot of time to groups of shinobi acting in concert to build human ladders to scale walls or cliffs. While the shinobi were often recruited from the lower class there were also geographically isolated areas in Japan (Iga province) where professional shinobi trained. In fact this is where the manuals have been found and are now at the Ninja Museum in Japan. Of note it the famous ninja/shinobi Hattori Hanzō was a central figure in the unification of Japan.
Bottom line is I am not sure what I will call a classic ninja/shinobi sword built to industrial strength standards with an oversized saya with a hole in the bottom. Never the less I have a much better understanding of the term ninja.
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steveboy
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Post by steveboy on Jul 22, 2023 4:28:41 GMT
Just finished reading what wiki has to say about the term ninja. Seems the term ninja is sorta made up word by Americans in the 1950s and popularized in movies, comics, cartoons, and the like and probably was not really the best term for me to use in my OP. O Pretty much the only place you ever were aware of anything ninja-related through the 70s was in martial arts magazines, and even then it wasn't all that common. The only popular movie depiction I can think of before the early 80s was in Sam Peckinpah's The Killer Elite (ninjas in gray attacking people on the mothball fleet off the CA coast in Benicia!). That was 1975, the year James Clavell's novel Shogun became a huuuge hit and brought the idea of ninjas to most Americans.
In 1980 NBC's miniseries of James Clavell's Shogun became a cultural phenomenon (for years anything Japanese was "from the land of the Shogun") and ninjas were everywhere. The mythology became so concrete that nobody even questioned it. Ninjas don't wear whatever they need to wear in order to camouflage themselves; ninjas have a uniform (I mean, "ninja uniform," does no one realize what an oxymoron that is?), so that tons of movies show them wearing the black outfit no matter where they are. Ninjas have their own sword, so that super-secret invisible assassins who'll die before revealing their identity all wear a sword that proclaims them as ninjas. Dojos teach "ninjitsu" with a straight face (mine does; I've refrained from commenting).
It reminds of Count Dante & his 60s comic-book ads. Or maybe even better, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance: "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
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Post by treeslicer on Jul 22, 2023 6:25:37 GMT
Ninja, swinja, lol. The proper word is shinobi.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jul 22, 2023 7:20:49 GMT
I assume shikomizue, cane swords, which needed shorter and more or less straight blades might be a pattern for the ninjato. A good weapon for spies or secret agents if you remove the official badge. Unfortunately it's hard to use the sh-prefix to shikomizue!
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 22, 2023 8:17:47 GMT
Just finished reading what wiki has to say about the term ninja. Seems the term ninja is sorta made up word by Americans in the 1950s and popularized in movies, comics, cartoons, and the like and probably was not really the best term for me to use in my OP. On the other hand as early as the 500s in Japan the term shinobi was used to describe warriors who functioned as what some peeps would call a ninja. They were basically spies and trouble makers who infiltrated enemy positions and gathered intel or messed up stuff. Around the 800s manuals appeared describing shinobi training. Arson was a big hit as it could cause lots of problems for enemies. Later more manuals appeared with more training methods. There were also descriptions of some weapons. What were called flat round stones were used to distract the enemy so the shinobi could safely flee and the claim is made this was the precursor to the shuriken. They also made caltrops to slow down enemies chasing them. As was mentioned before the sword used was far shorter than a katana but the scabbard was made long with a hole at the bottom. The hole served at least two purposes. First it could be used as a breathing tube/snorkel when hiding under water. The manuals also mention putting dried cow dung or even clay dust in the bottom of the scabbard which could be blown out into an enemy's face. It was also a place other small items could be stored. Even to day in the Hollywood version a "ninja sword" has a square tsuba that seems abnormally large. The manuals mention that the scabbard could be leaned against a wall and the tsuba used as a step to help get over the wall (both the sword and scabbard were industrial strength for obvious reasons). In some ways this was similar to the Russian trench shovel which not only could be used as a shovel to dig but with the sharpened edges as an axe to chop down trees or humans; as well as a cooking plate over a fire. In fact the manuals devote a lot of time to groups of shinobi acting in concert to build human ladders to scale walls or cliffs. While the shinobi were often recruited from the lower class there were also geographically isolated areas in Japan (Iga province) where professional shinobi trained. In fact this is where the manuals have been found and are now at the Ninja Museum in Japan. Of note it the famous ninja/shinobi Hattori Hanzō was a central figure in the unification of Japan. Bottom line is I am not sure what I will call a classic ninja/shinobi sword built to industrial strength standards with an oversized saya with a hole in the bottom. Never the less I have a much better understanding of the term ninja. There is also an article about the ninjatō sword on Wikipedia. It says they first appeared in the mid 1950s or 1960s. Not that wikipedia knows all, but multiple articles in other languages seem to agree with this timeline.
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Post by Arlequin on Jul 22, 2023 11:04:43 GMT
Ninja swords weren't really thing, keep in mind for allot of japanese history, swords were a privilege of the elite, on top of naturally being expensive. Ninja swords would of been repurposed waki and broken tachi scavenged from battlefields. Although Ninja may have developed certain fighting techniques, their primary goals were info gathering and assassination, if they're in a long drawn out sword fight with their target or guards, they've essentially failed and are more likely to run away or kill themselves to avoid being tortured. That being said, walking with a big sword on ya wouldnt really be conducive to blending in the background and getting close to a powerful target. Now a farming sickle or slender tanto you can hide up your sleeve as you apply for a servant position in a castle is more useful for espionage.
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