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Post by oblivion25 on Jul 9, 2023 20:38:37 GMT
So I recently decided to get into Chinese swords and just received the magnificent Chu jian and I enjoy it! It’s light but has a good amount of blade presence! I’m also interested in getting the flying phoenix jian and was interested in how the two compare to each other. If anyone has handled both or just the flying phoenix feel free to comment and leave some insight! Thanks in advance!
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 10, 2023 15:04:25 GMT
As far as I know the biggest difference is blade profile. The Chu is octagonal while the Phoenix has a diamond cross section. The second difference is length, the Phoenix is 6cm/2,5" longer in the blade and 5cm/2" longer in the handle. They should feel about the same (the Phoenix might be a smidge harder to control). The Chus blade will be stiffer, firstly because of the cross section (octagonal cross section make for a pretty stiff blade) secondly because it is shorter at the same weight. If you plan to cut with it, the Phoenix should cut easier than the Chu (octagonal blades have more resistance when cutting), but the Phoenix is very flexible, almost like a rapier from what I have seen, some people don't like that. Skallagrim has a video about the Phoenix where he bent it on a botched cut, in my opinion because it is so flexible.
I decided to get the Gale Wind instead, since the Phoenix was too flexible for my taste.
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Post by darknovashin on Jul 10, 2023 18:38:17 GMT
While I don't have the Chu Jian in my collection to do the direct comparison, I would say the Flying Phoenix is a very nimble and fast blade benefiting from the thinner profile (diamond vs octagonal) and the longer handle providing further counter balance. I find the Flying Phoenix closer to a hand and a half style of weapon in handling versus some of the more explicitly one handed weapons in my small collection which consists of mostly LK Chen weapons, namely later period Jian. Compared to the Snow Peak and Gale Wind, I find it easier to control in a slash and transition between thrusting and cuts with the forearm and shoulder. The more modern 2 have more weight in the hilt and work better with tip control and wrist cuts. My training background is admittedly more in Japanese weapons though, and I am still working on the basics of Chinese swordplay. The reason I mention this is that I find the Flying Phoenix more akin to my katana in movement than the Gale Wind and Snow Peak with the shoulder and forearm cuts feeling more comfortable to me. This is not to say it's hard to use wrist cuts, just that it feels more natural to me to use it in this way.
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 10, 2023 20:35:47 GMT
From the specs on the LK Chen page the bare blades weigh about the same for all the Jian, only blade length and grip weight are different. In the information section they added a Weapon Dynamics Computer graph recently (it wasn't there when I bought mine), there you can see how the swords compare in handling characteristics.
Large oval means hilt is easy to move side to side, big angle at end means tip is easy to move. I have used the WDC before for my blades, and it works well to predict how a sword will feel. From the diagrams both the Gale and the Phoenix have more mass at the CoP, which means they hit harder, but the Chu is much more nimble in hilt and blade movement. And while the Gale is harder to move side-to-side at the hilt, its easier to mover the tip, accelerate it for a cut or stop the blade. All of this single handed of course.
darknovashin: let me know how this fits with your experience. I hope it isn't against the rules link these pictures here.
I made a mistake earlier, the video from Skallagrim where he bent one was the White Arc, its even longer and more flexible than the Phoenix.
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Post by darknovashin on Jul 11, 2023 1:49:45 GMT
Ah ha! I had hoped someone had done those diagrams. I am not familiar enough at reading them to predict how a weapon will feel, but based on your descriptions that matches pretty well to my experiences with the Gale Wind and Flying Phoenix. I personally am not fond of my Gale Wind as I feel it handles slowly and the reduced ability to move it laterally would match with that, though it does have better point control. I do actually find my Flying Phoenix easier to stop and change directions though, but that might be the raw weight difference. My Gale Wind is on the heavier side at 1104g. I would say that while the Gale Wing is easier to move and control the tip of, it's actually harder for me to stop and accelerate in a cut powered from the forearm and shoulder, but rotating cuts from the wrist are easier to start and stop.
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 11, 2023 6:56:00 GMT
This would be the weight, when you use your shoulder/arm you need to accelerate the whole 1100g with the Gale Wind or 820g with the Flying Phoenix, thats almost a 300g difference, which you will definately feel. Mine is also exactly at 1104g. How heavy is your Snow Peak? Coming from other single handed swords swords, the Ming Jian are pretty fast and nimble, but of course a 800g sword will feel much lighter. I would have bought the Magnificent Chu if it was a simple diamond cross section, I am not a fan of the octagonal. I do mostly cutting and the octagonal cross section has more drag. Also I wanted something in spring steel because its easier to remove scratches from it and it should be more forgiving with botched cuts than the T9/1060 pattern. The Ming Jian have a more cut oriented blade as well, I had hoped for something around 1000g in weight, but it's still very nimble compared to other swords I handled in this weight range and it's a fearsome cutter. Realize LK Chen swords are quite light for their size, even the heavy ones.  |
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Post by darknovashin on Jul 11, 2023 18:09:19 GMT
My Snow Peak is 1040g I believe, just about the predicted on the website. It is actually my favorite for the combination of maneuverability and control. It is a joy to move around. My Gale Wind just feels sluggish in comparison to either both in the cut and the thrust. Directly comparing the Flying Phoenix and the Snow Peak, the Flying Phoenix is the winner for slashes from the forearm and shoulder, and I like the option to mix in two handed cuts and thrusts. But, as a single handed weapon, the Snow Peak is the winner by a good margin.
I haven't gotten to do much cutting with them (just water bottles and empty gallon bottles), and both feel very clean and controlled. I tend to like a stiffer blade overall as my second favorite LK Chen blade is the Soaring Sky rather than the Flying Phoenix, but I haven't cut with it to compare if the octagonal cross section bothers me there. I dislike the handle structure of the Soaring Sky unfortunately, which is why the Snow Peak wins out. At some point I will set up the new cutting stand and roll the tatami in my garage. I also have a Scott Rodell Cutting Jian to compare to.
By then, I hope to have a proper katana to cut with as well to compare it to. Most of my experience has been with katana owned by a member of my former dojo who also did Toyama-Ryu, and I haven't owned a shinken till recently and it's still being mounted. I am curious to see how cutting tatami with curved vs straight blades feels as well. Have to knock off about a decade of rust first though, which is my summer project.
And yes, LK's weapons trend to the lighter side for their size which had definitely helped with getting familiar with them and Chinese sword forms. :-)
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rschuch
Member
Sharp blades are good to have, if Shire-folk go walking, east, south, far away into dark and danger.
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Post by rschuch on Jul 11, 2023 20:10:00 GMT
My Snow Peak is 1040g I believe, just about the predicted on the website. It is actually my favorite for the combination of maneuverability and control. It is a joy to move around. My Gale Wind just feels sluggish in comparison to either both in the cut and the thrust. Directly comparing the Flying Phoenix and the Snow Peak, the Flying Phoenix is the winner for slashes from the forearm and shoulder, and I like the option to mix in two handed cuts and thrusts. But, as a single handed weapon, the Snow Peak is the winner by a good margin. I haven't gotten to do much cutting with them (just water bottles and empty gallon bottles), and both feel very clean and controlled. I tend to like a stiffer blade overall as my second favorite LK Chen blade is the Soaring Sky rather than the Flying Phoenix, but I haven't cut with it to compare if the octagonal cross section bothers me there. I dislike the handle structure of the Soaring Sky unfortunately, which is why the Snow Peak wins out. At some point I will set up the new cutting stand and roll the tatami in my garage. I also have a Scott Rodell Cutting Jian to compare to. By then, I hope to have a proper katana to cut with as well to compare it to. Most of my experience has been with katana owned by a member of my former dojo who also did Toyama-Ryu, and I haven't owned a shinken till recently and it's still being mounted. I am curious to see how cutting tatami with curved vs straight blades feels as well. Have to knock off about a decade of rust first though, which is my summer project. And yes, LK's weapons trend to the lighter side for their size which had definitely helped with getting familiar with them and Chinese sword forms. :-) I'll be interested to see the comparison with the Scott Rodell jian. That's the one I ended up getting because the price was right, but I had the Gale Wind in my Amazon cart forever waiting to bite. |
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 12, 2023 7:44:12 GMT
They are pretty similar, except for grip length.
I was thinking of getting the Snow Peak, the information in the shop says they should be quite similar. The newly added WDC diagram on the other hand says the PoB of the Snow Peak is at 7cm while the information in shop says 10cm, if the 7cm is closer to true, this could make the difference you feel. I like the blade on the Snow Peak, but I have misgivings about the rayskin handle, I don't like how it feels in the hand. This paired with the information on the shop (which you obviously can't trust 100%) made me choose the Gale Wind.
EDIT: If you want a very nimble, light Ming Jian get the White Serpent.
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Post by darknovashin on Jul 14, 2023 2:18:47 GMT
mrstabby: I was worried about the rayskin handle as well initially and wore a pair of leather gloves while starting to get used to it. But, honestly, they sanded the skin very well so, while rough, I haven't torn any calluses or gotten any friction issues with the Snow Peak when I switched to bare handed. There is the caveat that I didn't cut with it bare handed yet so I haven't dealt with any external force on the blade while I was using it. It locks in very tightly, even more so than the wrappings on the Gale Wind or Rodell Cutting Jian. I have been eyeing the White Serpent for a bit, but it's currently lower on my list than getting one of the Western blades (Ribaldo or Saxony) or saving up for the Ultra Edition Flying Phoenix (mostly as to have an example of "stir-fried" steel in my collection).
I will also admit to being a bit worried about the focused back-weight of the pommel on the White Serpent (and the Ribaldo) if only because it has previously been something I disliked on Western Swords. It throws off my control with wrist movements more than I would like, making easier to start but harder to stop. I have less of a problem with basket guards as the weight is a bit more spread out. This might be because I started with Katana though, and I just need to use a weapon with a large pommel for awhile to compensate.
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 14, 2023 5:55:19 GMT
Both, White Serpent and Ribaldo are quite blade heavy. The pommel and grip on the White serpent is lighter than the ones on either Snow Peak or Gale Wind.
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Post by darknovashin on Jul 14, 2023 20:59:47 GMT
Oddly for me, it's not the handle as a whole that throws me off, but the specific concentrated weight of a pommel. A weapon can be decently blade heavy and be ok, my preferred iaito runs about 6-7 inches with a weight around 1060g for example, whereas my strength training iaito runs 1280g with a POB out at 8.5 inches. Both are more hand and a half in use switching between one and two hands frequently and feel for a lack of better way to put it "normal" as they are what I used for training. The few times I have handled longswords and arming swords in that same weight range, though the POB is closer, they have felt harder to control if easier to start rotating. Not sure I am explaining it correctly though. I should watch through the mapping video again and run my iaito through it to compare. That may help.
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Post by dlatrex on Jul 23, 2023 2:36:10 GMT
I was thinking of getting the Snow Peak, the information in the shop says they should be quite similar. The newly added WDC diagram on the other hand says the PoB of the Snow Peak is at 7cm while the information in shop says 10cm, if the 7cm is closer to true, this could make the difference you feel. I like the blade on the Snow Peak, but I have misgivings about the rayskin handle, I don't like how it feels in the hand. This paired with the information on the shop (which you obviously can't trust 100%) made me choose the Gale Wind.
Ah... this may be my fault in part. I am currently doing the measurements and graphical outputs for these LKChen swords and it's a bit of an iterative process (some of the graphics my change on the website as we refine them). A few points 1. As I mention in the discussion videos linked each of these is done using a specific sword, which ideally should be "representative" of the model line, but due to them being hand made, there will always be variation between examples, and the nature of the WDC data collection will also allow for human variance for much of the data collected, so even the same sword being measured by two individuals may yield slightly different graphs.
2. Specific to the PoB on the Snow Peak, I just took mine off the wall and checked, and sure enough it comes in at ~7cm, but that is taken from a specific point on the guard. This probably warrants a larger discussion as I don't think this methodology is completely hammered out for all possible hilt configurations, but with this large ace-of-spade guard the point it's being measured starting the 'proximal end of the meatus' of the guard. So imagine that instead it is a guard like a tulwar, with long langets sticking out... I am ignoring those parts and measuring from where the 'socket' begins. In this case the langets are just a kind of medium pointed pyramid only maybe 1.5cm long.
Other methodology my use the back of the guard closest to the grip ferrule as a starting place, so we need to be careful about consistency, and I'll need to double check that all of the previous charts and measurements are roughly in line with this approach, but they should be.
So in short, yes my Snow Peak has a 7cm PoB, but it depends on how you're measuring it, and your own may vary slightly.
Hope that all makes sense!
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