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Post by erichofprovence on Jun 3, 2023 11:19:18 GMT
Good morning good people, Please, allow me to introduce myself: I am a UK-based sword enthusiast who recently (2021) got into the thrill of making my own stuff. It all started with the making of a bronze age sword at a workshop in Wales and me wishing to make a scabbard for it. Since then I have learned much and made a total of three scabbards. I am looking to expand my fun to customising some swords (currently on the lookout for a Windlass Type XIV). I thought I'd share what I have done so far. I would love to do more, but I am currently living in a flat with cream carpets, so any use of fire is a big no no! But like many sword lovers here, I try to find a way to express my passion. Onto the scabbards, as I said, there are three:  First, the bronze sword scabbard, my first attempt. For this I used pine planks (poplar was impossible to find), in which I chiselled out the profile of the blade. I then glued them together and sanded down the profile to get it as thin as possible (or until my arms started hurting). Then wrapped the core in leather stitched in the back, added some embossing, dyed the leather and added X shaped belt suspensions. It was a bit clunky and took me a lot of time, having started in 2021 and finished in December 2022 (blame my full time job and the poor quality of my first chisel), but what a feeling when I was done!  The second was a longer scabbard for the UC sword of Boromir, which I had bought a few years back (I'm a sucker for LoTR and Type XIV). Same method really but with a bit more ambitious embossing and better belts. Took me from about September 2022 to January 2023. Some improvement but thought it was still too chunky. Which leads me to the final scabbard.  The last was the scabbard for the LoTR's Glamdring. I actually had already done a wooden core which I was not happy with because of the fit. I read about the veneer technique in a post by Peter Johnsson on Myarmoury.com, so I tried it out using model airplane wood. It took me a month and I am very happy with the result (slightly less happy with the embossing but it is a learning curve). I am currently working on the belt suspension which I am hoping to finish in the coming weeks.  Anyway, I thought I'd share this here. If there are other amateurs like me who want to know more about the process, I'm more than happy to talk or point to much more knowledgeable people. And if anyone has some advice on how to improve, I'll definitely take it! More photos here: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1spx6kyVpnx_DBTcNAbgEjK0wD11bb6Hy?usp=sharing |
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Post by bd68 on Jun 4, 2023 2:31:48 GMT
Very nice work! Well done!
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 4, 2023 13:05:23 GMT
Welcome to the forum. Attractive work you’re doing and I’m sure gratifying. The Windlass XIV is a good sword. I’m keeping mine and urge you to continue searching.
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Post by erichofprovence on Jun 7, 2023 20:26:04 GMT
Welcome to the forum. Attractive work you’re doing and I’m sure gratifying. The Windlass XIV is a good sword. I’m keeping mine and urge you to continue searching. Thank you, it is gratifying but also I keeps finding new flaws every day... More motivation to get onto the next project! I understand the Windlass is difficult to come by. Might be tempted by the Kingston Arms Crecy sword instead. A bit pricier but the blade is very good looking (hollow grind for this price is pretty rare). |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 7, 2023 22:45:58 GMT
All artists find flaws in their work.
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Post by cptnvimes on Jun 21, 2023 16:09:08 GMT
Great job on those scabbards! Quick question: you mentioned that you added the embossing after the leather was applied to the scabbard, could you elaborate on the process? did you make a stamp of sorts? I do have a Landsknecht Emporium Falke Kriegsmesser and I would like to add some decoration to the scabbard but I am somewhat hesitant to mess with it since it was expensive and I don't want to mess it up. I thought most scabbard makers do the leather embossing before they glue it to the scabbard but mine is already on so I can't go back to that level. But if I can add the embossing now, without messing up my scabbard, that would be most interesting. Anyways any pointers would be greatly appreciated!
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Post by erichofprovence on Jun 23, 2023 6:16:00 GMT
Great job on those scabbards! Quick question: you mentioned that you added the embossing after the leather was applied to the scabbard, could you elaborate on the process? did you make a stamp of sorts? I do have a Landsknecht Emporium Falke Kriegsmesser and I would like to add some decoration to the scabbard but I am somewhat hesitant to mess with it since it was expensive and I don't want to mess it up. I thought most scabbard makers do the leather embossing before they glue it to the scabbard but mine is already on so I can't go back to that level. But if I can add the embossing now, without messing up my scabbard, that would be most interesting. Anyways any pointers would be greatly appreciated! Hello there, thank you. Let me elaborate on the embossing: I followed the method outlined by Peter Johnsson. This means applying the Veg tan leather (1.2mm) to the wood core, using hide glue and stitches in the back of the scabbard. Once the leather has been applied and the designs have been prepared, I use a sponge to wet the areas of the scabbard I wish to engrave, and I use a stylus to draw/carve in the design. I didn't use any stamps because the designs were either my own or were really just a one time thing. I am thinking of getting background stamps for the next scabbard. This is the method. I know that some apply the embossing prior to wrapping the leather, but I just don't find it practical. If one does this, the leather would have to be perfectly applied and the risk of having the design be misaligned is just too great. The whole point of putting the leather first is to have a clear view of the final product and to project your embossing design onto it. I must point out however that I apply the embossing and only then to I dye the leather and apply the finish. I seem to understand from your message that you already have a finished scabbard. I am not sure how to emboss an already dyed leather. I read somewhere that it was possible, but that you were also running the risk of damaging the leather. I can't remember where I saw this conversation, whether it was here or on the bladesmith forum. In any case, I hope this helps. |
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Post by cptnvimes on Jun 23, 2023 15:07:41 GMT
That does help a lot! Thank you. My scabbard is not dyed but just brown veg-tanned leather.... I was considering dyeing it black later to match the black leather grip of the sword. what kind of stylus did you use? and how much pressure?  |
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eastman
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Post by eastman on Jun 24, 2023 1:59:59 GMT
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Post by cptnvimes on Jun 26, 2023 14:13:46 GMT
That helps. Thanks! I am thinking about a danse macabre motive based on a Hohlbein design for a Baselard scabbard. Rather ambitious but I might be able to simplify it a little.  |
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Post by erichofprovence on Jun 28, 2023 9:02:45 GMT
That does help a lot! Thank you. My scabbard is not dyed but just brown veg-tanned leather.... I was considering dyeing it black later to match the black leather grip of the sword. what kind of stylus did you use? and how much pressure? As said below, I have used one of those stylus ball pens. This has its limitations of course in terms of what you can do. For more complex patterns, you may want to get a swivel knife. But I also must point out that the leather on your scabbard does seem to have been either light dyed or given a finish. Otherwise it would have been a lot lighter like this: drive.google.com/file/d/1nEK5aBLVymf-g0SBUtJwG4hSqi0eMV6-/view?usp=sharingI tried to add some embossing to an already dyed and finished piece of scrap leather and while it did take some of the shapes, I am not sure if it will keep them. Also it was a lot harder to work the shapes into the leather since it does not absorb water like undyed leather. Not saying you can't do it, but just a word of caution that it might not hold up as well and that more complex motifs may be too difficult to get. Also, I noted that during my quick attempt, my tools slight twice, which never happened to me before, probably because the finished leather didn't provie the same grip. |
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Post by erichofprovence on Jun 28, 2023 9:04:42 GMT
That helps. Thanks! I am thinking about a danse macabre motive based on a Hohlbein design for a Baselard scabbard. Rather ambitious but I might be able to simplify it a little. If I were you, I'd obtain some leather scraps and first train on simpler designs. Also for something like this, a stylus will likely not be enough and you'd need a background stamp and a swivel knife. |
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Post by cptnvimes on Jun 28, 2023 14:21:36 GMT
100% that. I won't risk messing up my scabbard... so leather scraps first for sure. I was thinking to re-trace the design in Illustrator, then create a 3-d stamp which could be 3-d printed and then try to stamp it in one go... might work... might not but I would try it out on scraps first.
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Post by erichofprovence on Jun 28, 2023 15:08:29 GMT
100% that. I won't risk messing up my scabbard... so leather scraps first for sure. I was thinking to re-trace the design in Illustrator, then create a 3-d stamp which could be 3-d printed and then try to stamp it in one go... might work... might not but I would try it out on scraps first. Oh if you are willing to invest in a stamp, then sure. Can speak to how well it would work though. The dyed leather scrap in tested the embossing on this morning seems to have kept the marks relatively well by the way. |
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Post by cptnvimes on Jun 28, 2023 15:25:38 GMT
I wouldn't exactly say invest.... I'll have a guy at work 3-d print it for me. But not sure how well a plastic stamp would work. Most leather embossing tools are brass. Then again it doesn't need to repeatedly work well for years and years with a lot of use. Not sure if it's cheating to use modern manufacturing approaches on something this traditional. What are your thoughts on using Carbon Fiber for a scabbard core? Still cover it in leather so it wouldn't look different than a wood core but then one wouldn't need to worry about changes in temperature and humidity affecting the fit... sacrilege?
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Post by erichofprovence on Jun 29, 2023 7:30:57 GMT
I wouldn't exactly say invest.... I'll have a guy at work 3-d print it for me. But not sure how well a plastic stamp would work. Most leather embossing tools are brass. Then again it doesn't need to repeatedly work well for years and years with a lot of use. Not sure if it's cheating to use modern manufacturing approaches on something this traditional. What are your thoughts on using Carbon Fiber for a scabbard core? Still cover it in leather so it wouldn't look different than a wood core but then one wouldn't need to worry about changes in temperature and humidity affecting the fit... sacrilege? If it helps you express your passion, then you should do it. The only case I would be opposed to modern methods, is if one uses them and then wrongfully claims to have used historical methods. In general, if you really want to use historically accurate methods, then you'd probably have to throw your modern tools out as well (and who does that). I myself use modern model aircraft plywood to make my scabbards now... So if using 3d printers and carbon fiber helps you make something you are proud of then of course you should go for it. I think we are all very passionate people here and this passion is expressed in many different ways (for some it is historical accuracy, others it's recreating their favourite fantasy prop). All those ways are legitimate as long as we are honest about our goals, respect other people's work and are open to improve and discover new things. Regarding your plan to make a stamp: if you can get it done easily then of course that's great. I would caution that leather than has already been treated may not accept stamping as easily. When I applied the stylus on my piece of scrap, I had to use quite a bit of force. And you don't want to press too much and risk damaging the wood core. I'll be curious to see how your project goes! |
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Post by mrstabby on Jun 29, 2023 8:52:51 GMT
If you can choose the plastic for printing use ABS. Much tougher and rigid than PLA, might work better as a stamp. There are also metal filaments you can use, but they won't work with every printer and need some trial and error to work (haven't done this myself, only seen tutorials, but the results can be incredible).
I agree, the finished leather products won't take the stamping or embossing as well, but it will leave a mark for sure. It might not be as deep, but it will show when done right.
As for carbon fibre, I'd say it can be done. Do you have experience with carbon fibre?
In my opinion it will depend on if you can make it as one continuous scabbard (using a mandrel shaped like the cavity inside the scabbard you want and covering it in fibre sheets and epoxy) or need to make two halves and glue them together. A single piece scabbard will probably be tougher than wood, but a glued one might be weaker. Be sure to make it thick enough, if it's too thin and able to flex too much it will break easily.
I am also worried about wear. Not only will the blade be dulled more quickly, but the blade scratching the fibres might weaken the integrity. In my experience a small scratch is enough to weaken the whole significantly, but the forces applied to a scabbard might not be big enough in normal use for this to count.
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Post by cptnvimes on Jun 29, 2023 14:28:15 GMT
As of right now I am mostly musing about what could be done. I intend on 3-d scanning my scabbard then I would model in cad a chape for it (which would be 3-d printed in metal Stainless most likely), in the same go I would get the artwork done and lay it out virtually to make sure it all fits with the chape and all, then 3-d print the stamps for the leather work. On the Landsknecht Emporium website it says that the scabbard is oiled leather... does this mean it would be problematic to wet it in order to do the stamping?
The CF scabbard would be for my Cold Steel Kriegsmesser (which didn't have a scabbard). I was looking at scabbard making tutorials and then I was eyeing some 1/8" long flat CF strips I have lying around from some old project and wondering: could it be possible to make a CF core scabbard instead of wood? The method would be in 2 halves that are glued together but I have some ideas as far as joining them strongly. The blade has basically a triangular cross section making it well suited for a 2 flat halves joining technique. As far as strength goes... if I use Loctite Hysol 9430 adhesive, nothing will take those apart ever especially compared to traditional hide glue. I would be putting down a layer of felt between the blade and the CF anyways so damage to the fibers would be unlikely. For a more traditional diamond section longsword blade a laminated braided sleeve approach might be better possibly with a light wood core. But for now I would work with stuff I have at hand. If I have the time that is... I still have a demanding day job to deal with.
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