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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2023 15:11:07 GMT
I have noticed that a number of the forum members, have in their collections, swords from Albion, Lockwood, and some from the custom makers, most of which are priced at $1200 and up. I have often wondered over a span of 55 years of collecting reproduction swords, what you actually get for that price difference from say a Darksword Armory piece that has no flaws?
I have owned some very well-made swords from some of the makers in the $500 range and even some for a little less. I am not being sarcastic at all, but some of you in this group can give me an opinion on what the additional $500 to $700 buys, as opposed to a sword for half that price-
I could buy an Albion if I wished but, have not been able to justify their cost. Guys, please enlighten me --
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Post by Arlequin on Apr 23, 2023 16:12:35 GMT
3 main differences
1. Obvious is just general fit/finish. Everything will be a little crisper, better blade polish, better quality leather and wrap, smoother transitions between parts. After a certain price point your basically just paying for aesthetic detail.
2. Less obvious, but more important is edge quality. Most low-to mid range swords have large secondary bevels, the quality of these bevels can range widely as it just depends on the skill of the person doing it at the time. Higher end swords have much more refined sharpening (and to an extent more historically accurate) which produces a better cutting edge. Not only does it cut better, but most people agree is just looks better too.
3, this one is more hotly debated so I wont go into do much detail, but distal tapering. Distal tapering in simple terms is the sword getting thinner along the blade. This can greatly effect a swords balance/handling. That being said, not all high end makers get this right.
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Post by demonskull on Apr 23, 2023 17:15:42 GMT
I'm kinda with the O.P. here. I've been collecting blades since I was six. Started with bayonets, then commercial knives, then custom knives. I moved into swords in the 80's and have had well over 100 pass through my hands before reselling them. I currently have around 20 that I like and most of those I plan on keeping. The most money I've ever spent on a single sword was a customized Atrim through Christian Fletcher almost 20 years ago for $630. I have 1 true Albion and another built on an Albion blade.The vast majority of all the swords I've purchased were around the $250 mark or less. The main difference aside from the quality of an expensive piece, I find to be the resale value. Most Albions/Atrims resell for about 85% of their original price while less expensive pieces tend to resell at about 60% of their original cost.
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Post by pellius on Apr 23, 2023 17:52:08 GMT
Imho, by far the most important difference, and the one that most justifies the price difference, is that most low to mid budget swords are overbuilt in the foible, and many are under-built in the forte. This tends to render them unfun to wield.
I can really only speak to a few makers - Albion, ATrim, and L Driggers - as those are the ones I have some experience with. They always handle extremely well; entirely different from most (but not all) lower end swords. Since that difference in performance is hard to quantify and put into words, it is hard to convey to those who have not experienced it.
Smiths have told me that properly heat treating a thick-to-slender tapered blade without warping it is a difficult and costly skill to achieve.
Handling is only one aspect of a sword’s value, and not always a priority to every enthusiast.
Regardless, most sword folks seem satisfied with swords with other strengths, especially when spending four figures on a toy is the price of admission otherwise.
Imho, Albion and ATrim are kinda the budget end of consistently good handling medieval swords. For the money, you reliably get high performance and competent aesthetics.
But not bespoke craftsmanship. The buy in for that seems to be more than halfway to five figures, plus an indeterminate wait time.
Perhaps it’s like Longines compared to Patek Philippe, or maybe Corvette to Ferrari. Demonstrably “better” than Timex or Kia? Probably, at least in some regards. Worth the cost? Most folks seem not to think so.
Anyways, there are quite a few good looking budget friendly swords that are quite nice with strong performance. There is much fun to be had in the hobby regardless of budget.
Good hunting!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2023 20:19:50 GMT
Hey, some good points here. I do understand, and distal tapering is important. I can tell pretty quickly when there is no reason for noticeable blade heaviness, but it's there. I've noticed that a few more makers are listing distal tapering in the sword's description. I think to, that part of it is more attention during assembly, the opening in guard matching the shape of the blade, and, as mentioned, just overall very precise fit and finish. I would not expect to see waviness in an Albion blade no matter how it's held in the light.. My nephew has a new Albion coming so I'll be able to see for myself. It'll be a while however, another one of those 8 months to 12 months deals -Thanks for the input --John
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Apr 24, 2023 8:04:43 GMT
I own one Albion and the perfection in every detail is impressing. My favorite brand nevertheless is the Hanwei group incl. KA and APOC because their Euros have also good distal taper and handling but less perfect hilts for 1/2 to 1/4 the price. Their cooperation with Tinker or Atrim helps much. I found out that my favorite swords became my favorite swords after some time of handling them. So I don't want to order an expensive Albion with 1+ year waiting time without having been able to swing the model and that's nearly impossible in Germany. With cheaper repros I'm less scrupulous to order something good looking at the risk of mediocre handling.
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Post by takitam on Apr 24, 2023 17:12:19 GMT
If you have always been happy with cheap swords, it is safe for you to continue. Asking random others for advice is silly. People almost always do that to get approval and convince themselves that they are right. We all have different reasons for this hobby.
If you are curious (generally a good thing) then give it a go and see for yourself. You have several shows in the US where you can safely handle Albion swords without buying. Whether it is worth it depends on how important swords are for you, if you value historical accuracy over fantasy book/movie inspirations, is the sword handling more important than its looks etc.
For me, a sword is not a two dimensional object. Too many people buy with their eyes based on photographs. And their taste is created by movie designs I find repulsive. So you have companies like Darksword Armoury or Kingdom of Arms creating ugly sword like objects that satisfy these customers.
A sword is not just a three dimensional object as well. It is a three dimensional object that is designed to be moved, in different ways depending on its type. Many custom makers do not have enough understanding of this as well. But when you handle a good quality weapon/tool it helps you to understand itself and its use and you feel the difference. Even as an amateur, the work becomes easier with a good tool...even if only a master can truly appreciate the differences. I occasionally see swords made of pattern welded steel, sold for 5k which look cool when you consider the metalwork but look amateurish as a sword. I would not buy them. Yet others do and probably enjoy it.
It's not that Albions are all great in all aspects. I had one that I did not like in hand. It didn't fit me personally. It's like any other hobby. Once you get to the top, you realize that there is no perfection, just different quirks that characterise products from different top quality companies. It's only us consumers who haven't decided to spend top dollars yet, who falsely imagine 'perfection'. But I now have another Albion sword, which is the only one I ever handled where every part works together to create a whole.
In other swords I have handled, there was always a part that doesn't sync with the others (e.g. a pommel that is too heavy and overbalances the blade, forcing your hand to do too much work when handling it; a blade that looks like it would cut in a picture, but in reality is thicker behind the edge than an axe; a sword of a thrusting type, which looks like it would thrust well even against armor, yet its tip is so thin that it would surely bend/break on a first non-perfect hit) and that one Albion has taught me an important lesson. These other swords were customs, costing more than most Albions.
But it was not perfect. It's edge close to the tip was completely blunt and I had to spend many hours with a file and sand paper before I fixed it to my satisfaction. Something unacceptable to many.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2023 18:53:27 GMT
You gentlemen have answered my questions about the upper-level swords. It is pretty much as I thought, closer attention to fit and detail, premium blade work and material, often as close as possible to matching a museum piece and great handling. All of that would pretty much justify the cost. All my current swords are from the midline makers at $300 to $700, my Darksword Squire at just under $700 being the most expensive. Even the Squire however has two very very small issues I can ignore, but the blade on it is the best I've ever seen. I am amazed at the quality of the Baluar I have-For an under $300 sword it is extremely well made, but not an Albion. I've had good and bad luck with the CAS Hanwei, one is actually a decent sword, but no lining in the scabbard at all. The second just isn't what I wanted [mostly my fault, I had hoped it would improve during shipping, but it didn't]. My one and only attempt at a Deepeeka actually had a blade with distal tapering, it was just at the wrong end of the blade. My Arbedo is by Windlass and it's definitely a keeper. John
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Post by fayebarca on Apr 24, 2023 19:47:19 GMT
My one and only attempt at a Deepeeka actually had a blade with distal tapering, it was just at the wrong end of the blade This had me laughing harder than it should have
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Alan Schiff
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Post by Alan Schiff on Apr 24, 2023 20:31:47 GMT
In my view, there are 3 areas that might set a more expensive sword apart from a cheaper one.
1. Design. Lower-end companies like Deepeeka, Windlass, and Hanwei tend to design their swords with aesthetics in mind over usability or historical accuracy. This may include improper distal taper, overall poor mass distribution, designs that decrease the functional ability of the weapon, etc. Higher-end swords are generally designed by people with knowledge of numerous types of sword, historical pieces, and functionality.
2. Fit and finish. More expensive swords are likely to be finished to a higher degree of detail than cheaper ones.
3. Quality control. All swords are hand-crafted to one degree or another, even if it's just in finishing phases. But the variance between the original design and a finished piece, and between multiple examples of the same design, tends to be greater with cheaper options. You are more likely to get a piece pretty close to the original specs with a higher-end maker.
That said, there are definitely still get a good sword from a cheaper maker, and there are plenty of more expensive ones that don't meet everyone's taste or expectations.
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Post by eastman on Apr 25, 2023 1:51:08 GMT
If you really want to answer the question, drive to New Glarus WI such that you will be there on a Mon-Thurs, contact Albion and arrange a visit to their showroom. Let the swords speak for themselves.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Apr 25, 2023 2:17:50 GMT
If you really want to answer the question, drive to New Glarus WI such that you will be there on a Mon-Thurs, contact Albion and arrange a visit to their showroom. Let the swords speak for themselves. Yes this, you will really understand the difference when you see and handle an Albion yourself. Atrims can have even better handling characteristics and are extreme performance cutting but the second characteristic you won't see until actually cutting with it through tatami and etc. Atrims are non historical in design though and fit and finish is not the priority with it. However if I use or handle a lower end sword it often feels either overbuilt for its size, swings like a club, handling being a bit off, issues of the guard and pommel coming loose over time. Secondary edge bevel creating less optimized cutting ability, etc. An entry level Albion like the Mercenary or Crecy just feels so much nicer to handle and use then some more budget alternatives, and if you spend a bit more for something like a Principe it will cut anything like a knife through butter.and other swords can have beautiful details and fit/finish etc. Also the designs just look so nice because it's based on real historical examples and looks much more authentic then budget sword designs. If I wanted to buy something as a budget cutter/beater sword though just to keep working on my techniques and cutting without worrying about wearing the blade down then something like a Hanwei Tinker longsword is excellent. Because albions have such a long wait time and any model has a limited amount ever made I am more a collector of them than actually do any cutting with any of them. I do like to dry handle them though. I have some really nice Atrims too which are principally designed for cutting. But they look so cool that I haven't even cut with those either lol. I like keeping my swords in original condition, but maybe I should try cutting with at least a couple eventually. I practice Toyama Ryu Kenjutsu so right now I only really do cutting with Katana and not my euro swords. Contemplated getting a hanwei tinker euro sword to do some cutting with too. So I don't need to worry about damaging it lol. On top of all of these options you also have very high end custom smiths like the Sulowski Brothers or Bjorn Gylfason and others who produce excellent hand made swords on the same level of quality or higher to that of Albion. But can also run you a more premium on pricing. Finally if you want to see some crazy beautiful heirloom quality type swords some that are highly functional fantasy pieces then check out Fable blades.
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