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Post by durinnmcfurren on Mar 18, 2023 17:07:06 GMT
So I have a question inspired by Christian selling this sword:
It's an absolutely gorgeous sword. But it raises an interesting question. If you look at the upper guard, normally migration era swords have two metal plates, one on the bottom and one on the top of the guard (next to the pommel) like a sandwich of metal with an organic filling (or, in some of them, a metal filling, and those with a metal filling tend to be more pointy, from what I have seen). This one just has the pommel on top, with no metal plate above the horn 'filler.'
Now, this paper has a similar reconstruction of a sword without a top metal sandwich piece on its upper guard. But it seems to be a reconstruction from a very incomplete find.
So, do we have historical finds in Sweden or other Scandinavian areas showing migration swords that lack a full metal sandwich of the upper guard?
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stormmaster
Member
I like viking/migration era swords
Posts: 7,653
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Post by stormmaster on Mar 18, 2023 18:23:49 GMT
Yes there are
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stormmaster
Member
I like viking/migration era swords
Posts: 7,653
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Post by stormmaster on Mar 18, 2023 22:36:18 GMT
look up the pouan sword and i believe ive seen others but thats the one i remember off the top of my head
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Post by durinnmcfurren on Mar 18, 2023 23:04:57 GMT
Do you mean this one? It looks like quite a different and earlier type, not the Behmer VI with the multi-layer guards?
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 19, 2023 1:57:43 GMT
Are there examples with a full sandwich guard and different at the pommel? I remember only swords that have the same construction in guard and pommel, whatever it was.
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Post by durinnmcfurren on Mar 19, 2023 2:46:45 GMT
All the examples I've seen have full sandwiches for both guards.
Except the Björn i Ägget, but the reconstruction appears to be done only from the pommel cap and a single piece of the lower guard, so I don't know why they assumed there wasn't a full sandwich for the upper guard. Since this reproduction appears based on that sword, though, I'm guessing that's where the idea to leave off that metal piece came from?
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 19, 2023 2:54:54 GMT
There seem to have exist all kind of constructions, 3, 2 or 1 layer, but usually guard and pommel the same. So the Björn might be a case of semprini happens.
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Post by durinnmcfurren on Mar 19, 2023 4:47:45 GMT
If there's two things I've learned from studying Scandinavian and northwestern European swords, it's that:
1. Every rule is broken sometimes. I've seen truly bizarre combinations of upper and lower guards that are obviously mismatched, for example, on later viking swords. Probably a case of 'This idiot broke one of the guards, now we have to replace it, but all we have is this old thing, so whatever.'
2. But the ways they get broken are often not the ways that modern reconstructions break the rules.
So this is a case where I'm really curious, just because I've never seen an original like this. As you say, usually the upper and lower guards are done with the same construction, whatever that might be. I'm sure Hakan just followed the reconstruction given by that paper I linked, but I am wondering what their argument for such a reconstruction might have been.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 19, 2023 6:04:44 GMT
They did what was shown in the paper, no second/upper plate at the pommel/upper guard. We'll probably not find out who is responsible, the smiths (hey look, we always used a second plate but indeed it's not necessary) or the archaeologists (I'm tired of digging).
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stormmaster
Member
I like viking/migration era swords
Posts: 7,653
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Post by stormmaster on Mar 19, 2023 6:09:47 GMT
there were a variety of different styles, theres some with just horn and no metal sandwiching the horn at all just a big ol chunk of horn then a pommel cap riveted on top, if i find the other pieces i vaguely recall with just the lower guard plate ill link u a pic
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 19, 2023 6:17:24 GMT
I found an example of one metal plate and one horn piece on the Barta/Templ site and assume there's an historical pattern for it. But both guards had an identical construction.
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