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Post by dannycanuck on Jan 28, 2023 2:08:53 GMT
Hi everybody, I'm a typically western and a bit middle eastern collector looking to branch out. Western stuff is straight forward, mid-eastern is very hard, and I am totally lost with Japanese stuff. I tend to like 15th century stuff. I am thinking about branching out with a tachi. I don't know what the best production tachi out there is, but there don't seem to be many. This is weird for me because when it comes to European swords, there is a clear pinnacle with Albion for production swords - this is totally unclear for me when venturing beyond that. I'm willing to consider Albion-level price and quality for other stuff, just to give a baseline. The best tachi I can fine is apparently sold all over the place - Swords of Northshire, Ryan Sword, Hanbon Forge, and wang-katana2011 Here are some links: www.swordsofnorthshire.com/samurai-swords/tachi/clay-tempered-folded-1095-steel-gold-plated-copper-fittings-japanese-samurai-tachi-swordwww.ryansword.com/Tachi-Clay-Tempered-Hazuya-Polish-Gold-Plated-Copper-Fittings--Ryan1348-p-1220.htmlwww.hanbonforge.com/Japanese-Swords/Tachi/Tachi-Sword-Japanese-Samurai-sword-Folded-Stee-Hazuya-Polish-Blade-Handmade-For-Salewww.ebay.com/itm/374168932968?hash=item571e34d268:g:99kAAOSwNkBix-w3Some of the pictures are exactly the same. I imagine that there is a forge somewhere in China, cranking these things out and that it has multiple resellers. Please, help me. 1) Is there some tachi out there that's a better production tachi? 2) If this is really the best...then what should I consider doing? This is the picture as I understand it: Swords of Northshire - expensive reseller with good customer service. Ryan sword - cheaper reseller with shady reputation. Hanbon Forge - possibly the origin of the sword (and not a reseller)? wang-katana2011 - again, possibly the origin of the sword but an ebay seller (which scares the crap out of me). Thank you so much! |
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Post by dannycanuck on Jan 28, 2023 3:14:16 GMT
I have just discovered cloudhammerforge.com and maybe this is the answer...
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Post by blairbob on Jan 28, 2023 4:00:31 GMT
I would pick Cloudhammer over those 4 for tachi. Those 4 are considered all to be lower end from LongQuan. Look nice enough.
I would not be spending close to a grand for any of those 4.
Hell, Hanbon and SoN are not that much cheaper than CloudHammer and DragonSword.
Ryansword do have some cheaper tachi though
I checked DragonSword and Z-sey. Dragonsword has tachi that start at $900 but Z-sey does not though I'm sure they could do something for the right $$.
Cloudhammer tachi start at the same price as Dragonsword.
RyanSword seems to hit and miss to make me want to deal with them (though I want one of their Conan swords)
TLDR:
Cheap tachi: Ryansword.
Nicer tachi: Cloudhammer possibly Dragonsword. Z-sey makes nice stuff. They all do honestly.
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Post by dannycanuck on Jan 28, 2023 19:19:30 GMT
Thanks for the response. If I get you right, it seems that Cloudhammer is a tier above the ryan sword, hanbon forge, etc. group? (and maybe the top tier when it comes to Tachi reproductions).
I have some questions...
One thing I found on Cloudhammer was that they said "we can typically acquire any other tsuba set that you would find on sellers like Hanbon Forge, Ryan Sword, AliExpress, etc" This indicates to me that they might all be getting stuff from the same place in terms of fittings. However I think that on the tachi models, the fittings look nicer on the Cloudhammers - so maybe they use nicer stuff but can get the other stuff if people want? Regardless, maybe the way Cloudhammer swords are put together is nicer?
Furthermore, maybe they are getting their blades from elsewhere but are they better? I notice that they have cable, tool, and spring steels while the other ones seem to be using 1095 (folded and clay hardened on the one's I posted) - which I thought was pretty standard. Are the Cloudhammer steels better? In particular, they use sx105v Japanese steel or W2 cable steel, which also seems to be clay hardened but not folded...although I am not sure that's actually a bad thing - isn't folding actually bad in the modern context aside from looking cool? Wasn't it folded back in the day to take out impurities that are no longer an issue? Doesn't folding just weaken a blade now?
I appreciate any help forthcoming!
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Post by Eric Bergeron on Jan 28, 2023 22:34:45 GMT
What I will chime in here and say, don't knock Ryansword and use their old reputation against their new way of doing business, I decided a month ago to purchase a wakizashi from them and I received a fantastic, lively blade with tight fittings, then I went and couple weeks later ordered a katana that I changed up some fittings, tsuba etc.. and once again I received an amazing blade, do they have cheap products? Yes, but that doesn't mean they are all cheaply made, they cater to everyone's collecting needs and if you know what you want they can make it. Now I am in no way saying go with Ryansword, but I just wanted to make sure you had all the information to make your decision.
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Post by blairbob on Jan 29, 2023 6:11:21 GMT
I've got enough sorta for most stuff or I can just ping John for deets. I just have zero desire to screw around with Customer service sempriniery.
I'm not interested in Tachi enough to want to spend $700-900 to start. But a cheaper one from RyanSword, or maybe even SoN. I love the shape of the blades and size though I'm not always into the style of fittings (they tend to be more gaudy but that makes sense since they aren't for the rank and file).
Hell, if I got one it would likely be very simple looking lol.
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George
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Post by George on Jan 29, 2023 9:09:45 GMT
I've got enough sorta for most stuff or I can just ping John for deets. I just have zero desire to screw around with Customer service sempriniery. I'm not interested in Tachi enough to want to spend $700-900 to start. But a cheaper one from RyanSword, or maybe even SoN. I love the shape of the blades and size though I'm not always into the style of fittings (they tend to be more gaudy but that makes sense since they aren't for the rank and file). Hell, if I got one it would likely be very simple looking lol. Swords Of Northshire just resell Ryansword for more money. Total waste of time buying from SoN haha. Just buy direct and save up to 50% |
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Post by blairbob on Jan 29, 2023 13:23:28 GMT
I am well aware of that but it means you have a vendor with a lot more buying clout than one buyer buying one sword.
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George
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Post by George on Jan 29, 2023 15:14:25 GMT
I am well aware of that but it means you have a vendor with a lot more buying clout than one buyer buying one sword. Ohhh, you're talking about custom made stuff? |
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Post by blairbob on Jan 30, 2023 4:10:33 GMT
It seems repeat buyers, especially in bulk are better able to deal with the Chinese vendors because more cash is on the table.
SoN is basically that for their fee compared to being just a dude buying one sword, whether it's $100 or 1,000.
I might be willing to buy a cheap tachi from RS first to see if really like one compared to $700-1,000 from Cloudhammer or DragonSword.
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Post by dannycanuck on Jan 30, 2023 4:52:43 GMT
I do have to say that I like the looks of the cloudhammer one much better - even given the cost difference (although not so much compared to SoN). This is just based on fittings. As I said before, I am not sure about the steels.
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George
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Post by George on Jan 30, 2023 14:56:33 GMT
I do have to say that I like the looks of the cloudhammer one much better - even given the cost difference (although not so much compared to SoN). This is just based on fittings. As I said before, I am not sure about the steels. If you want the best production Tachi you can buy, you really should contact Zsey. They used to offer a Tachi blade, so I'm sure you could still buy one. Won't be cheap but will definitely be worth the $$$. I'd say comparable to Albion. Antiques are also an option if you want a Tachi eg: giheiya.com/product/02-1478/Dragonsword are basically the Chinese version of Zsey (cheaper fittings etc), so also a great option.
Reviews on Cloudhammer have been mixed, but if you just want a Tachi that YOU like and not so much the best one money can buy, Cloudhammer would be a great choice.
If you want the cheapest Tachi money can buy, Ryansword would be the go.
Hope this helps!
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Post by dannycanuck on Jan 31, 2023 0:44:50 GMT
Thanks George. I will certainly contact Zsey to see if they have tachi offerings (they list it as a category but it is empty at the moment). I don't think I want the responsibility of an antique (I feel like you become the steward of something important). So a reproduction is what I'm really after.
I have seen a few cloudhammer reviews and you are right they seem to do some stuff right and some stuff could be better. What worries me most is the kashira come loose. This seems to be even worse with ryanswords, SoN, etc. I don't know how bad it would be with tachi, considering how different the kashira are on them (if you even call them that on a tachi).
I am immediately impressed by the fittings of Zsey. The menuki, for example, seem so crisp. Other ones you can't even tell what they are supposed to be unless you get a real simple ones. They just look like a metal blob.
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George
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Post by George on Jan 31, 2023 3:36:49 GMT
Thanks George. I will certainly contact Zsey to see if they have tachi offerings (they list it as a category but it is empty at the moment). I don't think I want the responsibility of an antique (I feel like you become the steward of something important). So a reproduction is what I'm really after. I have seen a few cloudhammer reviews and you are right they seem to do some stuff right and some stuff could be better. What worries me most is the kashira come loose. This seems to be even worse with ryanswords, SoN, etc. I don't know how bad it would be with tachi, considering how different the kashira are on them (if you even call them that on a tachi). I am immediately impressed by the fittings of Zsey. The menuki, for example, seem so crisp. Other ones you can't even tell what they are supposed to be unless you get a real simple ones. They just look like a metal blob. In my opinion you can't go wrong with Zsey. The other thing they do well is customer service, they have always responded to me in under 24 hours. They won't be cheap tho. So Dragonsword www.swordcn.com/ is another option. The same people who run Zsey run Dragonsword, but they just cater more to the Chinese market (things aren't finished as nicely on DS as they are for Zsey).
You are right (sadly) about the other points!
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Post by blairbob on Jan 31, 2023 5:56:52 GMT
The tachi off Dragonsword were even more expensive than Cloudhammer's! They have a few other expensive swords besides the under $500 niche.
Maybe Z-sey isn't getting a lot of inquiries about Tachi? I'm glad you remembered they had Tachi because I thought they did as well though couldn't find any.
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Jan 31, 2023 6:08:23 GMT
I do have to say that I like the looks of the cloudhammer one much better - even given the cost difference (although not so much compared to SoN). This is just based on fittings. As I said before, I am not sure about the steels. If you want the best production Tachi you can buy, you really should contact Zsey. They used to offer a Tachi blade, so I'm sure you could still buy one. Won't be cheap but will definitely be worth the $$$. I'd say comparable to Albion. Antiques are also an option if you want a Tachi eg: giheiya.com/product/02-1478/Dragonsword are basically the Chinese version of Zsey (cheaper fittings etc), so also a great option.
Reviews on Cloudhammer have been mixed, but if you just want a Tachi that YOU like and not so much the best one money can buy, Cloudhammer would be a great choice.
If you want the cheapest Tachi money can buy, Ryansword would be the go.
Hope this helps!
Tbf the giheiya sword you posted isnt a tachi but a handachi, so still a uchigatana. Not to be that guy of course |
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George
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Post by George on Jan 31, 2023 8:30:21 GMT
The tachi off Dragonsword were even more expensive than Cloudhammer's! They have a few other expensive swords besides the under $500 niche. Maybe Z-sey isn't getting a lot of inquiries about Tachi? I'm glad you remembered they had Tachi because I thought they did as well though couldn't find any. Dragonsword are better quality than Cloudhammer though? I don't see your point? |
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George
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Post by George on Jan 31, 2023 8:31:21 GMT
If you want the best production Tachi you can buy, you really should contact Zsey. They used to offer a Tachi blade, so I'm sure you could still buy one. Won't be cheap but will definitely be worth the $$$. I'd say comparable to Albion. Antiques are also an option if you want a Tachi eg: giheiya.com/product/02-1478/Dragonsword are basically the Chinese version of Zsey (cheaper fittings etc), so also a great option.
Reviews on Cloudhammer have been mixed, but if you just want a Tachi that YOU like and not so much the best one money can buy, Cloudhammer would be a great choice.
If you want the cheapest Tachi money can buy, Ryansword would be the go.
Hope this helps!
Tbf the giheiya sword you posted isnt a tachi but a handachi, so still a uchigatana. Not to be that guy of course It was the first antique I found lol. Just using as an example hehe |
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Post by dannycanuck on Jan 31, 2023 17:10:25 GMT
Thanks for all the responses. Yes, I am looking for a proper tachi rather than a handachi. News: I heard already from Zsey and had a back and forth. They don't have a tachi but will do a custom with a starting price of over $4000 I'm willing to pay for quality but I just can't do bespoke. All budgets have limits! So I think that means I am narrowing down to just these one (unless somebody comes up with something else): From Dragonsword: swordcn.com/product/tachiswordcn.com/product/tachi-2From cloudhammer: cloudhammerforge.com/products/copy-of-handachi-functional-aesthetic-32-nagasa-sx105v-choji-hamonI'm wondering if I could solicit opinions about these. One thing I really want to consider in addition to the obvious one about quality is historical accuracy for the 15th and 16th century. I think that probably the second tachi from dragonsword and the cloudhammer one are better here...I'm not sure. I just don't have the knowledge. I think that the first dragonsword one looks like museum ones that have later fittings on older tachis. The cloudhammer one looks a lot like images I have found from that era - at least the top half. In regards to the bottom half the second dragon sword looks right (and the colours look better on the cloudhammer but I wonder if I can just get the colours changed on the dragonsword). One thing I wonder about is that the cloudhammer has no rayskin - but isn't this typical for that era (didn't they do both silk and rayskin?) Thanks! |
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Post by dannycanuck on Jan 31, 2023 23:03:36 GMT
Other things I am noticing:
The cloudhammer seems to be right in terms of the length. It seems like the dragonsword tachi are more suitable for Katana length. Also one of the dragonswords use a double edged blade. I don't know if that's right or not, but I have never seen a double edged tachi.
The cloudhammer doesn't seem to be folded but the dragonsword ones are. I'm still not sure about the cloudhammer steel, but I don't know what the dragonsword ones use.
The cloudhammer's habaki is clearly copper but the dragonsword ones say they are but don't look it (they look bronze).
For fittings, cloudhammer's is blakened bonze with gold and silver plating while dragonsword's are brass.
Dragonsword uses apparently thicker sago but it is polyester (I don't know what cloudhammer uses). The leather looks thicker on the dragonsword (I'm not sure) but the rivets look worse.
It seems like there are points going back and forth. I don't think it is a straighforward choice and so I'd really like some other opinions on this. I'm leaning cloudhammer just because it seems more correct overall from a historical point of view - from my utterly layperson's perspective. But that's just one of many factors (such as quality).
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Things have changed!