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Post by yelman on Jan 20, 2023 3:23:15 GMT
It’s my understanding that all mortuary hilts are basket hilts and their main identifying feature is 3 bars of the hilt screwed (or riveted?) into a hollow, spherical pommel. My question is whether there is a ‘standard’ configuration to the basket, or were they variable?
Also, what was the typical blade associated with these hilts, and lastly can you recommend a good manufacturer?
appreciate all replies!
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Post by bas on Jan 20, 2023 8:52:41 GMT
British Swords by Stuart Mowbray is an excellent reference on different mortuary swords. As you say, they are essentially a basket hilt with three bars and one or two connecting bars on each side. There is also a proto-mortuary hilt with is essentially a rougher arsenal version. As for blades, they can be broadswords or back swords. Many are cavalry length but there are infantry length swords around as well. Being a 17th Century sword type, I wouldn’t really call them medieval either, more renaissance. I can’t recommend a reproduction but you can see the details on my mortuary sword here
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 20, 2023 10:07:22 GMT
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jan 20, 2023 13:01:15 GMT
I have the CS mortuary and really like it. That sword handles well as it cuts. It’s not bad in the penetration department by going through 3 plies of rugs before completely piercing a filled gallon jug. Dave Kelly gave it high marks under Summary in the above thread.
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Nox
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Post by Nox on Jan 20, 2023 13:42:40 GMT
I've wanted one of these for a while however, none of the reproductions seem to have the thumb ring for some reason.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jan 20, 2023 14:34:02 GMT
I've wanted one of these for a while however, none of the reproductions seem to have the thumb ring for some reason. I question if the originals had a thumb ring.
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Nox
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Post by Nox on Jan 20, 2023 14:53:17 GMT
Then what am I seeing at the 3:20 mark of this video?
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jan 20, 2023 15:45:26 GMT
Then what am I seeing at the 3:20 mark of this video? Thanks for the video. That’s a beautiful sword that has been well preserved. I dare say that a thumb ring on this type of sword is rare. Also, if not done correctly, as might be the case on a repo, will add discomfort. I do not miss not having one on my CS.
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Post by yelman on Jan 20, 2023 16:27:29 GMT
thanks all for your valuable input!
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Post by Mark Millman on Jan 20, 2023 16:36:01 GMT
Dear Nox, As pgandy says, thumb rings are rare on British swords. The mortuary sword associated with Oliver Cromwell that you cite above has one, as does the complex-hilted cavalry broadsword that Arms & Armor sell as their Cavalier Rapier, which is based on an example in the collection of Sulgrave Manor. Both hilts are typically British in styles not seen in continental Europe, which indicates that they were made in Britain--probably England--for local customers. The most likely explanations are that either the original owners had experience with swords with thumb-rings and when they commissioned the swords ordered that their hilts have thumb-rings; or that the hilts were made by immigrant craftsmen who copied local styles but included elements they were familiar with from their previous work in continental Europe. Note that both swords are for mounted use, which is also where thumb-rings are seen on continental swords. I hope that this proves helpful. Best, Mark Millman
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Post by Mark Millman on Jan 20, 2023 18:18:38 GMT
Dear yelman, That's correct. Screwed; I'm not aware of any riveted examples, and the screws are present on many, perhaps most, extant ones. Some of the screws even seem to be originals rather than later replacements. I'd add that other important features of mortuary hilts are: a boat-shaped counterguard (the dished portion of the guard that lies between the grip and the blade) with a rolled wrist-guard; short languets that lie along the blade's base (these are occasionally absent); the typically bifurcated root of the side knuckle-guards that curls into a pair of horns; and an oblong shoe between the counterguard and the grip (which you can just about see at 4:55 in the video that Nox posted). (Please note that in part I'm using Cyril Mazansky's terminology from his 2005 book, British Basket-Hilted Swords: A Typology of Basket-Type Sword Hilts, which is an excellent study and has a section on mortuary hilts. Stuart C. Mowbray's 2013 British Military Swords, Volume I: 1600 to 1660: The English Civil Wars and the Birth of the British Standing Army also has a very helpful section on swords with these hilts; it's the same book that bas links above. And Charles Martyn discusses some examples in his 2004 book The British Cavalry Sword from 1600.) Bud-shaped pommels are also very common for the style. Actually, I think that these hilts don't often have the type of large, hollow, spherical pommels often seen on c. 1600 basket-hilts. Their period of greatest popularity ended twenty or twenty-five years before the mortuary hilt developed. Mortuary hilts do often have a type of smaller, flattened-spherical pommel, usually with a base or stem where it joins the grip. Typically there's a pommel nut, rather than the tang's being peened directly against the pommel. They're variable. All examples have front knuckle-guards. A few examples are known that have only outer side knuckle-guards (i.e., protecting the back of the user's hand) and lack inner side knuckle-guards, but they're rarer than ones that have only front knuckle-guards. The sword in the video is one of these, as the thumb-ring replaces the inner side knuckle-guard. Most common are the type with all three knuckle-guards (front, outer, and inner). As bas says, the number of branches connecting each side knuckle-guard to the front knuckle-guard is very variable. Extant examples range from having no branches (these are rare) to having three, although one or two are most common. The arrangement is typically symmetrical. Incidentally, I have to disagree slightly with bas about the so-called proto-mortuary style. I think that they represent a convergent line of development that starts from different antecedents. Current research indicates that they do not in fact pre-date mortuary hilts, and may actually have appeared slightly later. Their counterguards aren't boat-shaped and usually are arched rather than dished. They also lack the shoe between counterguard and grip that mortuary hilts have, as well as the connecting branches between the side and front knuckle-guards, and the languets. But they are functionally similar and resemble true mortuary hilts, so the two types are worth discussing together. As bas says, they're found with both broadsword and backsword blades, and most are sized for cavalry use but some are infantry length. The comparison by Dave Kelly that AndiTheBarvarian posted above covers almost all of the production mortuary swords available. I note that Armour Class in Glasgow make several variations, including their basic model (which as mentioned in Dave Kelly's comparison is reviewed at myArmoury); two versions of the sword that Cromwell is reputed to have carried at Drogheda; and a late style of proto-mortuary. You can see the latter three on Armour Class' 17th Century Page 2; the basic model is on 17th Century Page 3. Armour Class offer blades in different lengths, both blunt for re-enactment and HEMA use, and sharp. I used to have a proto-mortuary backsword by Nielo Sword in Czechia, too. I liked it, but sold it several years ago and don't remember how it handles. A Web search shows a facebook page and a Twitter account for Nielo Sword, but I can't find the Web site that I remember. Kult of Athena used to carry their products, but no longer do. I don't know whether the company is still in business. I hope this proves helpful. Best, Mark Millman
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Nox
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Post by Nox on Jan 20, 2023 18:22:46 GMT
Then what am I seeing at the 3:20 mark of this video? Thanks for the video. That’s a beautiful sword that has been well preserved. I dare say that a thumb ring on this type of sword is rare. Also, if not done correctly, as might be the case on a repo, will add discomfort. I do not miss not having one on my CS. I hear that a lot about the thumb ring on the cold steel polish saber, so that is a good point. I would probably have to go custom. Thanks for the information Mark. If I recall I believe that Swedish cavalry swords had a similar design with a thumb ring, though they might be from a later date.
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Post by Mark Millman on Jan 20, 2023 18:36:44 GMT
Dear Nox, You're very welcome. I think you would have to go custom to get a mortuary-hilted sword, or most other types of western European sword with a thumb-ring. But you do correctly recall that thumb-rings persisted well into the eighteenth century on western and northern European cavalry swords, particularly in the German states. I have a vague memory of a reproduction pallash that has one, but I can't bring any specifics to mind. Kult of Athena carries Universal Swords' Swedish swords, both of which have thumb-rings, but they're out of stock. Best, Mark Millman
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jan 20, 2023 18:59:24 GMT
I had roughed this out during a break and see that it has been pretty well addressed above, but I’ll post anyway. One thing to consider when buying a repro sword is that manufacturer intends one size to fit all, whether the size is accurate does so or not. One only has to read owner’s comments over time to see there is a problem in this area, grip too short, too wide, needs more palm swell, etc. Actually, that’s an impossible goal due to the hand size variations. A mis-fitted thumb ring could be most uncomfortable. A martingale would be more forgiving, but then a martingale on a mortuary? I have no doubts that Cormwell’s sword was fitted to him whether than the smith saying “that’s close enough for government work”.
I consider a mortuary guard a modified basket hilt as it does not encompass the hand as fully as a true basket leaving more room for freedom of movement. I had wanted a basket hilt for some time until I obtained the mortuary and like it more than I would full basket, FWTW. To tell the truth I almost pulled the trigger several times but backed out when considering the restrictions I was expecting with a full basket.
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Post by bas on Jan 20, 2023 20:06:48 GMT
Then what am I seeing at the 3:20 mark of this video? An exception to the rule…. Welcome to the wonderful hobby of collecting pre (and in some cases post) pattern swords.
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Post by bas on Jan 20, 2023 20:11:26 GMT
Dear yelman, That's correct. Best, Mark Millman Hi Mark, Thank you for the post and your excellent replies.
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Post by yelman on Jan 20, 2023 22:32:53 GMT
thanks all for contributing to this excellent thread
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Post by Mark Millman on Jan 21, 2023 16:10:38 GMT
Dear bas,
High praise indeed! Thank you!
Best,
Mark Millman
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Post by Mark Millman on Jan 21, 2023 16:11:22 GMT
Dear yelman,
I'm happy to be able to help.
Best,
Mark Millman
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 21, 2023 19:11:49 GMT
Fantastic thread, this. Thanks to all involved.
I keep going back-and-forth on getting a mortuary, myself, with my primary interest being Hanwei's Cromwell. Alas, finances are such that priorities are elsewhere and my preferences tend to be in other styles anyway. Perhaps one day though...
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