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Post by brogersoslo on Jan 13, 2023 8:14:24 GMT
Hi all,
I am looking at two older rapiers and contemplating purchasing one of them. In doing some research to try and verify their authenticity I found that older rapiers tended to be heavier and usually had a blade of a meter in length or more.
One of the rapiers is little over 1 meter in length, but the other one has a blade length of only around .7 meters, so I am wondering if it might be more 18th or 19th century?
I am attaching photos of both and appreciate any info or advice you all have. I've been collecting silver and other antiques for a bit, but this is my first time looking at swords.
The one with "IHI" written down the blade and the curved spade looking cover on the grip is the shorter one. The auction site claims both are early 1600s.
Thanks!
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Post by adtharp on Jan 13, 2023 14:14:21 GMT
These are likely reitschwerts from the 30 years war timeframe. The first might be typed a "walloon". I don't see anything that throw me off as to authenticity, but I would probably be judging based on the seller (what is the seller's reputation?). These are really cool swords, and one of my favorite to collect. They are often very well balanced and feel really nice from a cut and thrust perspective.
That being said, they are not what I would traditionally think of as "rapiers". If you are looking for a true rapier, it is likely not this. These are "rappiers" as Meyer would have typed them in the early 1600's, so there is that. This all gets really confusing after a while, because there are not perfect definitions. I think of it like cars. What is a car? Is a pick-up truck a car? Would you be confused if someone said "I'm going to run out to my car and grab that" and then went to a pick-up truck? Probably not. But most people would define a car as some sort of sedan. Likewise, what is an SUV? Traditionally an SUV is built body-on-frame like a pick-up truck, but most people would call a Toyota Highlander or a Honda Pilot an SUV, but neither of those are body-on-frame. So, it was with swords back in the day. Sword and rapier could often be used interchangeably, and regionally that likely differed as well (if you call a Hyundai Santa Cruz a "truck" in NYC, no one would dispute it, but if you call it that on a ranch in Wyoming, you might get some weird looks...but Car and Driver classifies it as a small truck, so ????)
So, that being said I* would call the first one a walloon and the second a rapier-hilted broadsword or reitschwert. But that is me.
Real question - if you want a long rapier in the style of the 3 musketeers or the italian fencing masters, this will not be it. If you want a cool sword from the 1600's, these might fit the bill.
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Post by brogersoslo on Jan 13, 2023 20:18:34 GMT
Thank you both for responses.
I am looking for a really cool sword from the early 1600s, so it sounds like they fit the bill. The auction site is reputable in Oslo - I've bought other items from them that are legit and they have a staff of experts. I just like to double check when it's something new as even on staff experts can make a mistake - for example they call one a Rapir (Norwegian for Rapier). The other they call a Kårde when when I googled brought up a page saying it was a Rapier, but that could be a faulty translation.
I like the IHI one a lot because of the blade to be honest. Has more character to it.
Out of curiosity, the estimated price for the auction is around $1500 for one and $2000 for the other. How would that compare to prices in the US? Norway tends to be higher priced for things.
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Post by adtharp on Jan 14, 2023 0:14:17 GMT
Those seem like fairly reasonable auction prices to me. Dealers usually retail these for $2-3000. Swords like this I would expect to be cheaper in Europe, as there are just a lot more around. Note: the experts aren’t wrong per se, rapier maybe the best word to describe these in that language, to me, tomato/tomahto (not sure if you know that idiom).
Auctions, of course, are a variable, and those pieces may go for more or less.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 14, 2023 4:48:14 GMT
I also think that those are not rapiers but reitschwerter/sideswords/rappiers or just "swords". They have no guard rings to protect a finger wrapped over the crossguard and the sailguard one even seems to have a thumb ring. Rather battle weapons than duelling rapiers, in general with shorter blades that can cut and thrust. Oakeshott: If it feels like it could cut an arm off it's a sword and not a rapier. Here's a good MyArmoury thread with many pictures of rapiers: myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=37332
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Post by brogersoslo on Jan 14, 2023 5:48:13 GMT
Thank you for the additional info. These would be battle swords. There was a law passed in Norway in late 1500s or early 1600s that required everyone to be able to arm themselves in Norway in case of war and the auction site is saying these are from that time and meant to be use in case of war. So that all fits with what you guys are saying.
Very helpful info everyone. Hopefully the auction price stays low so i can pick up one at a good deal. Then the real fun begins as I love deep diving into whatever I bought and using that to start learning about different artifacts. I may come back with more questions in the future :-).
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