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Post by latt on Oct 23, 2022 18:14:06 GMT
Hello all, I am new to sword collecting but have been on the hunt for a French Cavalry sword to go along with a collection of French bayonets I have been building. I picked it up at an estate sale and I am looking for any information available on this sword. I believe it is a Light Cavalry Sword, and from the ornamental grip with a crest believe it belonged to an officer. I’ve looked through some of the other threads on the forum about these swords which have been helpful, but I am struggling to positively identify what I have here. Is the hilt older than the blade which is marked 1884? 1. Is there any way to identify the crest, it is hard to identify a crown over a C through an online search. Does anyone recognize the crown or other elements of the crest? 2. is there any meaning behind the ornamental elements of the grip, or was this standard for these swords? 2. Does the leather scabbard cover look original to the sword? What’s the best way to preserve that? I haven’t removed it to check markings on the scabbard as I am unsure if I could get it back on. 3. What does “Ent de Henry” mean on the inscription on the back? 4. When we’re these swords phased out? Would they have been used long after the model 1896 was introduced or phased out long before WW1? 5. There is a crack in the handle material and the top few rows of wire are slightly loose. Any info on whether a repair is needed would be helpful. Any other information would be greatly appreciated!
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 24, 2022 12:22:33 GMT
Welcome to the forum latt. I can offer no constructive information, but no doubt some other members will chime in. I do suggest oiling the grip to save it from further splitting. Use an oil designed for wood and not metal.
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Post by latt on Oct 24, 2022 14:06:12 GMT
Thank you for the reply and for the suggestion! I have a few different oils that I use for woodworking that I could use, but If there’s a particular oil suited for this purpose I am fine to buy some (I’ll find another use for it).
I assume an oil that dries is preferable? I have walnut oil which I have used for tool handles and mineral oil + beeswax mixture that I use as a finishing wax for bowls. Alternatively I have mineral oil and danish oil, not sure if those are well suited.
I read elsewhere that a little wood glue may be helpful as well, what are your thoughts on that?
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Post by eastman on Oct 24, 2022 15:14:09 GMT
mineral oil is a good choice for the wood, the mineral oil with beeswax is also good
If I was building a modern replica, I would use Danish Oil on the wood (been using Watco for a lot of years, going back to Junior High School) but it wouldn't be my choice for conservation
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 24, 2022 17:09:05 GMT
Thank you for the reply and for the suggestion! I have a few different oils that I use for woodworking that I could use, but If there’s a particular oil suited for this purpose I am fine to buy some (I’ll find another use for it). I assume an oil that dries is preferable? I have walnut oil which I have used for tool handles and mineral oil + beeswax mixture that I use as a finishing wax for bowls. Alternatively I have mineral oil and danish oil, not sure if those are well suited. I read elsewhere that a little wood glue may be helpful as well, what are your thoughts on that? I don’t think there is “the” oil to use. I used linseed oil on my rifle stocks, starting back when rifles had wooden stocks. I’ve also used teak oil. Tung oil has been recommended to me. In a pinch I’ve used mineral oil. As for glue; ??? I’d hold off and watch what happens for a while. If the crack continues to increase, yes.
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Post by Mark Millman on Oct 25, 2022 14:33:20 GMT
Dear latt, The grip is very likely horn, not wood. Horn is a common grip material on French officers' swords, while bare wood is not. Horn has a fibrous or layered structure--the appearance depends to some degree on how it's cut--and can come to resemble wood as it ages, particularly if it's not conserved. I recommend that you look up advice for preserving horn. I've been told that tortoiseshell, which like horn is made of keratin, responds well to olive oil gently rubbed in, but I don't recall having seen or heard similar information about horn. I can speculate that a lanolin-based conditioner also may work well. I agree with pgandy's suggestion that you hold off on using glue, at least initially. To answer a couple of your other questions, you are correct in thinking it's an officer's sword; that's indicated both by the production information on the blade's spine and by the decoration on the hilt. There is no meaning particular to this sword or its model conveyed by the decorative elements on the hilt. They are common to many styles of French officers' swords. No doubt the designer who originally came up with them intended them to have some meaning--the foliate motif at the borders of the pommel cap is, I believe, laurel or perhaps olive branches, both of which make classical allusions--but the ornament follows a standard pattern used on many models over a long period of time. The hilt and blade are very likely original to each other. It would be easier to be certain if you could post a photo of the peen, but there's no reason to believe otherwise from the current photos. While I don't know what the abbreviation means, the inscription is "Ent^se Henry", not "de"; you can see an example of "de" further left in the inscription, where it says, "Off^er de Cav^rie" (the carets indicate that the letters immediately following them are superscript). Again, I can speculate that "Ent^se" may stand for entreprise, meaning "company", in which case "Ent^se Henry" may refer to the cutler or outfitter that assembled this example or supplied it to its original owner. Let me repeat, however, that I don't recognize the abbreviation and could very easily be wrong about this. I hope that someone more expert in this field than I sees this thread and responds. In the meantime, I hope that this proves at least somewhat helpful. Best, Mark Millman
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 25, 2022 17:09:00 GMT
FWIW I use mineral oil on my horn grips. I’m not saying that it is the correct oil, only that I use it for horn.
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Post by latt on Oct 25, 2022 17:39:39 GMT
Thank you for the reply! I think you are correct Mark, on closer inspection of the handle it looks much more like horn than any antique wood I have seen. I have avoided using olive oil on projects as I have read it can go bad in the material after some time, I haven’t tested that myself though. It seems like other non-drying oils like olive oil are a good fit from what I have been reading online, such as mineral oil or neatsfoot oil (derived from cow foot and shin bones). Thank you for those details on the hilt and the inscription, that is very helpful to at least confirm the exact inscription and the convention they follow. I have attached a picture of the peen to provide further detail on the hilt. Attachments:
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Post by Mark Millman on Oct 26, 2022 5:33:29 GMT
Dear latt, You're very welcome. I'm glad to be able to help. I must admit to using mineral oil on some horn items of my own as eastman and pgandy suggest precisely in order to avoid rancidity, but they're recently made objects and have never needed restoration. If you can contact a museum's conservation department or a professional restoration service, either may be able to give you a more detailed answer. The photograph you so kindly provide of the peen reinforces my belief that this sword's blade and hilt are original to each other. Original peens on French military swords typically are very well executed and extremely regular in shape with no marking of the softer brass surrounding the peen, characteristics yours shows. I don't see any suggestion that this has been reassembled or consists of parts not originally matched with each other. Best, Mark
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Post by maxdchouinard on Oct 26, 2022 19:14:34 GMT
This is a cavalry officer M1883 sabre, as identified on the spine. It was made in Chatellerault, which was a state owned factory for weapons, and the only one making swords. Officer swords made in Chatellerault are scarce, as they were a bit more expensive than the ones made in Klingenthal or Solingen, but considered higher quality. Since the hilt is not stamped with a poincon, it would indicate that the blade was made at the manufacture, sold to a furbisher who then assembled it to one of his hilts, before selling it to an officer.
Now, the most interesting detail on yours is the mention of Henry. While the building and equipment of the manufacture were state owned, it was operated by a private entrepreneur who was given a contract to run it and produce weapons for the French Army. They also had another right, which was being able to sell a certain number of swords for officers per year on the private market. Many were blades that got rejected in quality control because of small cosmetic details (not the right weight, shape, uneven lines, etc). Yours does not seem to be one of those, as it bears the mark of the director, who was an artillery officer charged by the army to certify weapons. In your case it's Duban, who was in post in 188 to 87. So this is probably a blade that was sold to a furbisher by François Louis Henry, who was entrepreneur of Chatellerault from 1879 to 1888
For the crest, it's not a family crest but the officers initials, with a crown indicating that he had inherited the title of viscount, or considered himself as such. So you are looking for someone in 1884 who was in a light cavalry or artillery regiment, or in some mounted corps, and with the title of viscount, though that would probably not appear in army lists. With the size of the French army at the time, it would be a monumental task, possibly impossible, to complete.
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Post by latt on Oct 27, 2022 13:28:30 GMT
This is a cavalry officer M1883 sabre, as identified on the spine. It was made in Chatellerault, which was a state owned factory for weapons, and the only one making swords. Officer swords made in Chatellerault are scarce, as they were a bit more expensive than the ones made in Klingenthal or Solingen, but considered higher quality. Since the hilt is not stamped with a poincon, it would indicate that the blade was made at the manufacture, sold to a furbisher who then assembled it to one of his hilts, before selling it to an officer. Now, the most interesting detail on yours is the mention of Henry. While the building and equipment of the manufacture were state owned, it was operated by a private entrepreneur who was given a contract to run it and produce weapons for the French Army. They also had another right, which was being able to sell a certain number of swords for officers per year on the private market. Many were blades that got rejected in quality control because of small cosmetic details (not the right weight, shape, uneven lines, etc). Yours does not seem to be one of those, as it bears the mark of the director, who was an artillery officer charged by the army to certify weapons. In your case it's Duban, who was in post in 188 to 87. So this is probably a blade that was sold to a furbisher by François Louis Henry, who was entrepreneur of Chatellerault from 1879 to 1888 For the crest, it's not a family crest but the officers initials, with a crown indicating that he had inherited the title of viscount, or considered himself as such. So you are looking for someone in 1884 who was in a light cavalry or artillery regiment, or in some mounted corps, and with the title of viscount, though that would probably not appear in army lists. With the size of the French army at the time, it would be a monumental task, possibly impossible, to complete. Thank you very much for sharing all of this information, it has answered a lot of my questions and confirmed a few things for me. I am trying to avoid the temptation to start collecting more French swords (I think I got pretty lucky on this first sword and only paid ~$350 USD for it, so it’s probably all down hill from here) but do you have any books to recommend? I can read French well enough if there isn’t anything particularly good in English. Thank you also for that information on the crest and the markings. I agree that it will be quite a challenge finding who it belonged to, but having those broad details at least is very interesting. Especially someone considering themselves a Viscount during the Third Republic, it makes this one of the most interesting things in my collection I think.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 31, 2022 17:06:57 GMT
I would like to suggest :: Les Sabres portes par l'Armee Francaise - Editions du Portal - by Jean l'Hoste. Not very expensive considering the wealth of information you'll find there. It is my go-to reference. To go somewhat deeper you could buy :: Les Epees by the same author. Compared to other publications these two go for peanuts.
Cheers.
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Post by maxdchouinard on Nov 3, 2022 16:02:47 GMT
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