Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Oct 10, 2022 18:39:22 GMT
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Oct 10, 2022 19:17:15 GMT
Connoisseur’s book goes into that too. For some reason a huge proportion of Kazu-uchi-mono ended up exported to China. Partly novelty I suppose, also partly as a way to keep those from ending up in the hands of wako (who despite the name were a mix of Chinese and Japanese pirates, even if their arms were mostly Japanese). There must have been some influence though as China during the Ming time made the Wa-Dao, which literally means Japanese saber. Maybe they thought that design good for swashbuckling?
I guess that’s exports coming full circle for you since Asuka period Japan learned it’s sword smithing from China.
As for quality, idk but the Yuan chronicles, and Imijin war chronicles both from the mongol or Chinese point of view spoke highly about Japanese swords. They probably just had a reputation for being good. If a Kazu-Uchi-Mono offered any advantage or was just exotic idk. Although to be fair even Kazu-uchi-mono are pretty good with very few slag inclusions in the edge and good ability to tolerate damage.
I don’t think China, except during times of unrest would have had trouble producing steel. They used an early version of the Bessemer process for smelting half a millennium before Europe implemented it, although supposedly that process had spread to Japan by the early modern period. That said they liked buying commodities (silver, swords from Japan). At least while they had a period of detente during Ashikaga.
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Yagoro
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Ikkyu in Kendo and Kenjutsu Practitioner
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Post by Yagoro on Oct 10, 2022 19:41:03 GMT
Connoisseur’s book goes into that too. For some reason a huge proportion of Kazu-uchi-mono ended up exported to China. Partly novelty I suppose, also partly as a way to keep those from ending up in the hands of wako (who despite the name were a mix of Chinese and Japanese pirates, even if their arms were mostly Japanese). There must have been some influence though as China during the Ming time made the Wa-Dao, which literally means Japanese saber. Maybe they thought that design good for swashbuckling? I guess that’s exports coming full circle for you since Asuka period Japan learned it’s sword smithing from China. As for quality, idk but the Yuan chronicles, and Imijin war chronicles both from the mongol or Chinese point of view spoke highly about Japanese swords. They probably just had a reputation for being good. If a Kazu-Uchi-Mono offered any advantage or was just exotic idk. Although to be fair even Kazu-uchi-mono are pretty good with very few slag inclusions in the edge and good ability to tolerate damage. I don’t think China, except during times of unrest would have had trouble producing steel. They used an early version of the Bessemer process for smelting half a millennium before Europe implemented it, although supposedly that process had spread to Japan by the early modern period. That said they liked buying commodities (silver, swords from Japan). At least while they had a period of detente during Ashikaga. So do you think it was more of a case of china doing the whole "wow they can do something we can do. That's praiseworthy"
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Oct 10, 2022 21:37:29 GMT
Connoisseur’s book goes into that too. For some reason a huge proportion of Kazu-uchi-mono ended up exported to China. Partly novelty I suppose, also partly as a way to keep those from ending up in the hands of wako (who despite the name were a mix of Chinese and Japanese pirates, even if their arms were mostly Japanese). There must have been some influence though as China during the Ming time made the Wa-Dao, which literally means Japanese saber. Maybe they thought that design good for swashbuckling? I guess that’s exports coming full circle for you since Asuka period Japan learned it’s sword smithing from China. As for quality, idk but the Yuan chronicles, and Imijin war chronicles both from the mongol or Chinese point of view spoke highly about Japanese swords. They probably just had a reputation for being good. If a Kazu-Uchi-Mono offered any advantage or was just exotic idk. Although to be fair even Kazu-uchi-mono are pretty good with very few slag inclusions in the edge and good ability to tolerate damage. I don’t think China, except during times of unrest would have had trouble producing steel. They used an early version of the Bessemer process for smelting half a millennium before Europe implemented it, although supposedly that process had spread to Japan by the early modern period. That said they liked buying commodities (silver, swords from Japan). At least while they had a period of detente during Ashikaga. So do you think it was more of a case of china doing the whole "wow they can do something we can do. That's praiseworthy" I think it was mostly that Japanese swords gained a reputation after the mongol invasions, and by buying they kept them out of the hands of wako. The same way other Europeans might have got Toledo swords
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Post by randomnobody on Oct 10, 2022 22:19:56 GMT
Probably all the same reasons people appreciate Japanese swords today. A combination of the sweet exoticism (ooh, thing from a foreign land across the sea~) and carrying an adequate reputation.
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Post by ambulocetus on Oct 13, 2022 12:05:51 GMT
What everybody else said, but also even the lower quality Japanese swords were still pretty good because of how they were made. Japan doesn't have any Iron ore, so all of their steel is made from Iron sand. The way the Iron sand is smelted results in steel of varying carbon content. The only way they had to make this material uniform was to fold it over and over, and this had the side effect of making a more resiliant steel. Even the lower quality blades were made from this steel, and so had a lot of work go into them. The mainland had Iron ore and used a different process to make steel, so part of the reputation of Nihonto is a quirk of geography.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 13, 2022 12:28:29 GMT
Afaik the iron ore wasn't thrown in form of lumps into bloomeries, it was first roasted and shred to more or less iron sand, inserted together with shred charcoal. Not a real difference to a Tatara process.
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