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Post by Kane Shen on Oct 10, 2022 1:06:09 GMT
Theres a lot to catch up on this thread, but from the Nodachi I have handled in the past I notice they are much more blade heavy and tip heavy in POB compared to their counterpart in european swords of greater size like a two hander. Longswords are more comparable to Katana though. Just longer thinner blade. Would be awesome to find a Nodachi or O Katana that handles with a closer POB and isnt bloated in weight when it surpasses 35 inches. On that note, I know many high quality makers of Katana, but not too many high end manufacturers or bladesmiths making Nodachi sized Katana. You are right that the average nodachi has more forward heavy. They tend to have PoB further away from the hilt, but it's not just the center of gravity--that's the smaller part of the story. The upper portion of the nodachi blades carry a lot more mass in relation to the base, comparing to European longswords. You were saying longswords are just thinner, that's not entirely true, especially for 15th century longswords. Most longswords with diamond cross section (flat ground, or hollow ground) are much thicker than katana--even some of the big nodachi which has thicker than usual base, but on the upper portion, they are tapered to be thinner than katana, on top of being also a lot narrower than katana. This is how mass distribution differs if you comparing them. Of course, like we have laid out in this thread, there are A LOT of variations, but there are general trends. That doesn't mean nodachi are clumsy swords, or they handle badly. I have cut with quite a few large nodachi and similar swords. You have less control of the tip, and it's much harder to stop and redirect. But I like the way they move. The cuts are quite decisive, as long as you maintain the momentum instead of going directly against it, you feel you are in control, and the way the sword moves gives you confidence that if anything get caught in your sword's path, it will be carried out in two-piece instead of one. It is a very unique feeling that you are building a relationship with your sword. |
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Post by zabazagobo on Oct 10, 2022 3:16:39 GMT
Kane, you're totally right and "forward balanced" was not the appropriate term to use (my Changdao has a PoB of 10 cm for a 105 cm blade length compared to my XXa from Swordmakery Elgur which has a PoB of 8.5 cm for a blade length of 95 cm). I didn't know how to convey the massive momentum of the cut : once it gets going, I find it more difficult to stop and redirect (you will feel the weight in the arms/the hand near the guard) than, say, a "Euro" sword (because of the shorter hilt and the pommel ?). Speaking of control, I feel that the Changdao "plays" like "inversed controls" (?) compared to a shorter length sword. As inversing the leading/guiding hand feels more comfortable/easier ? I'm right-handed and for a "standard length" sword, I would put my right hand near the guard and left hand near the "pommel" but for a Changdao, it feels easier to wield with the left hand near the guard and the right hand taking the other bit (like a spear ?). Sorry for the rambling, I cannot seem to put it in correct words.(crappy photo taken between two customers for illustration's sake)  Some stats : XXa from Swordmakery Elgur : Blade length : 95 cm Handle length : approximately 25 cm Ming Long Sabre from Art of Fire and Iron : (didn't manage to take a decent picture of it yet) Blade length : 105 cm Handle length : 45 cm (missing the last end bit on the photo) (as a small 160 cm guy, it is indeed almost as tall as I am) Weight is approximately the same 1.6 kg. As an aside, how do you like your long sabre by Art of Fire and Iron? I'm really curious about that piece as it has tons of cool style points and the proportions on it are in a ballpark of interest for me. How's the carved wood grip feel in particular? I've been especially curious about that component. |
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Post by zabazagobo on Oct 10, 2022 3:23:01 GMT
One thing I find confusing about terminology is what is a nodachi? Tachi during the nanbokucho at times exceeded 120cm avg nagasa. And the name even means something like “great sword”. Is that one? What about the smaller ones in muromachi and kamakura 80-90cm length? Some of the late nanbokucho are pretty thin for their length btw It gets even more confusing since nearly all were cut down to katana size and remounted. And many tachi made post 1467 weren’t meant for anything but ceremony. Also gets more confusing since a lot of early katana/uchigatana from the early muromachi just look like smaller than average (~75cm) tachi only really differing in that instead of mounting on armor you kept them on the belt so you didn’t get caught with your pants down. photos btw are of late nanbokucho tachi. Unfortunately cut down. Also unrelated but I wonder if the shorter hilt makes it harder to wield a longsword. I really like the balancing and flexibility you see in the longer nakago shinshinto and showa swords. Makes the later eminently usable with one hand. Exactly...it's so context dependent period by period (and not even century by century, also decade-decade, school-school, wax on-wax off) that the best I've gathered is to use the shaku measurement ballpark in conjunction with exchanging terms like 'uchigatana' 'tachi' 'katana' based on mounting, tsuka and field application. Then again, I need to get back into doing my homework on antiques and there's probably plenty of overlooked criteria and trends Sesko and others have so graciously already made available to my meandering mind. |
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Yagoro
Member
Ikkyu in Kendo and Kenjutsu Practitioner
Posts: 1,584
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Post by Yagoro on Oct 10, 2022 4:04:48 GMT
One thing I find confusing about terminology is what is a nodachi? Tachi during the nanbokucho at times exceeded 120cm avg nagasa. And the name even means something like “great sword”. Is that one? What about the smaller ones in muromachi and kamakura 80-90cm length? Some of the late nanbokucho are pretty thin for their length btw It gets even more confusing since nearly all were cut down to katana size and remounted. And many tachi made post 1467 weren’t meant for anything but ceremony. Also gets more confusing since a lot of early katana/uchigatana from the early muromachi just look like smaller than average (~75cm) tachi only really differing in that instead of mounting on armor you kept them on the belt so you didn’t get caught with your pants down. photos btw are of late nanbokucho tachi. Unfortunately cut down. Also unrelated but I wonder if the shorter hilt makes it harder to wield a longsword. I really like the balancing and flexibility you see in the longer nakago shinshinto and showa swords. Makes the later eminently usable with one hand. Exactly...it's so context dependent period by period (and not even century by century, also decade-decade, school-school, wax on-wax off) that the best I've gathered is to use the shaku measurement ballpark in conjunction with exchanging terms like 'uchigatana' 'tachi' 'katana' based on mounting, tsuka and field application. Then again, I need to get back into doing my homework on antiques and there's probably plenty of overlooked criteria and trends Sesko and others have so graciously already made available to my meandering mind. This. Also when i still had my bastard sword one thing i noticed was that it was much more difficult to wield one handed than most of my katana despite the less tip- heaviness of it. Im guessing this has to do with the longer tsuka of most katana, and the fact that you can sort of brace the tsuka against your forearm when using it one handed. |
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Post by zabazagobo on Oct 10, 2022 4:20:22 GMT
Exactly...it's so context dependent period by period (and not even century by century, also decade-decade, school-school, wax on-wax off) that the best I've gathered is to use the shaku measurement ballpark in conjunction with exchanging terms like 'uchigatana' 'tachi' 'katana' based on mounting, tsuka and field application. Then again, I need to get back into doing my homework on antiques and there's probably plenty of overlooked criteria and trends Sesko and others have so graciously already made available to my meandering mind. This. Also when i still had my bastard sword one thing i noticed was that it was much more difficult to wield one handed than most of my katana despite the less tip- heaviness of it. Im guessing this has to do with the longer tsuka of most katana, and the fact that you can sort of brace the tsuka against your forearm when using it one handed. Exactly. The extended nakago and long grip serves as an excellent counterweight and balance. Depending on technique, the way the tsuka aligns with the forearm allows you to sort of brace it, or rather 'harmonize' with it...it's not like a full dead-lock bracing but more of a fleeting 'assist'.
As a related personal example, the fact that while compared to either of my Dynasty Forge o-katana my Windlass Bosworth is the same weight and a couple inches longer and my Homildon Hill is a couple ounces heavier but has the exact same amount of reach past the top of the hand, both feel incredibly clunkier in a single hand than the DF o-katana and move considerably slower. They both have good profile taper and distal taper too. The DF o-katana...doesn't seem to know what taper is and doesn't seem to care because they'd probably just cleave that in half too. Yet they move much better in a single hand with much better recovery. I blame practice and training.
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Post by Kane Shen on Oct 10, 2022 5:07:55 GMT
Exactly...it's so context dependent period by period (and not even century by century, also decade-decade, school-school, wax on-wax off) that the best I've gathered is to use the shaku measurement ballpark in conjunction with exchanging terms like 'uchigatana' 'tachi' 'katana' based on mounting, tsuka and field application. Then again, I need to get back into doing my homework on antiques and there's probably plenty of overlooked criteria and trends Sesko and others have so graciously already made available to my meandering mind. This. Also when i still had my bastard sword one thing i noticed was that it was much more difficult to wield one handed than most of my katana despite the less tip- heaviness of it. Im guessing this has to do with the longer tsuka of most katana, and the fact that you can sort of brace the tsuka against your forearm when using it one handed. You have to understand this though, if it's the standard length katana (27" nagasa?) we are talking about, the blade is a LOT shorter than the bastard sword (I'm guessing 33" or so of blade length). So even though at the tip the katana is thicker and wider than the bastard sword, it's only about 3/4 of the blade length of the bastard at that point--further away from 27" to 33", there's not just less mass, there is no mass at all. So it's no surprise that when you have a short blade, it moves rather nicely. But it does come at a cost. Now a better comparison would be having a 32" nagasa o-katana to swing in both two hands, and one hand, to compare to how it handles to a bastard sword of equal blade length. |
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Post by Kane Shen on Oct 10, 2022 5:21:05 GMT
This. Also when i still had my bastard sword one thing i noticed was that it was much more difficult to wield one handed than most of my katana despite the less tip- heaviness of it. Im guessing this has to do with the longer tsuka of most katana, and the fact that you can sort of brace the tsuka against your forearm when using it one handed. Exactly. The extended nakago and long grip serves as an excellent counterweight and balance. Depending on technique, the way the tsuka aligns with the forearm allows you to sort of brace it, or rather 'harmonize' with it...it's not like a full dead-lock bracing but more of a fleeting 'assist'.
As a related personal example, the fact that while compared to either of my Dynasty Forge o-katana my Windlass Bosworth is the same weight and a couple inches longer and my Homildon Hill is a couple ounces heavier but has the exact same amount of reach past the top of the hand, both feel incredibly clunkier in a single hand than the DF o-katana and move considerably slower. They both have good profile taper and distal taper too. The DF o-katana...doesn't seem to know what taper is and doesn't seem to care because they'd probably just cleave that in half too. Yet they move much better in a single hand with much better recovery. I blame practice and training.
Windlass swords are generally excluded when medieval European swords are discussed. They tend to have not the proper distal taper at all for the period of swords they try to simulate. In general, Windlass doesn't taper the blade in thickness at all in the first half, and tapers minimally in the second half. The base is too thin, while the upper portion isn't thin enough. So Windlass swords are known to handle not like any original at all (Homilton Hill is a particularly egregious example has the thickness stays at 3.8mm throughout until the last couple of inches). You need some appropriate reproductions to actually tell how European swords move. The new Royal Armouries Collection by Windlass (X3 the price of their old offerings) is a good place to start. Or any good reproduction on the current market like Albion, Atrim or Valiant Armoury generally do it right. You take the Valiant Armoury and Atrim collaboration Vision line Exeter for example, similar to the Windlass Homilton Hill in size, but the blade starts out at 6mm, and is only 2.3mm near the tip. It sheds 62% of the thickness, while the Windlass is 3.8mm throughout, it sheds 0% of the thickness throughout the blade. You can see what a vast difference it would have on handling. |
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Post by RufusScorpius on Oct 10, 2022 11:15:09 GMT
Just to throw gas on the fire: I did a 2 day workshop with forum member Dalaran1991 and Jean Baptiste in Paris earlier this year specifically for the dandao- which is the Chinese analog to the nodachi/odachi. See video below Now, I am not at all claiming to be any kind of expert on the odachi (which for the purpose of making the discussion easier I will call all Asian swords of similar construction)..HOWEVER I did learn that you CANNOT transfer technique from a katana and just "scale it up" because it simply doesn't work like that. There is a very specific technique involved for the odachi that involves using a full body mechanic to control the blade. It is actually a ONE-HANDED blade, with the other hand occasionally helping out. Everything about it's use is counterintuitive. To answer the original question, YES, the odachi is very fast and hits VERY hard. In fact, it's wicked fast- much faster than you would think if you only used Hollywood movies for examples. It can most certainly hold it's own in any sparring- providing the user is properly trained. Yes, I said trained. As in you need somebody to teach you how to use it properly. I know this rubs some forum members the wrong way every time I mention getting a teacher, but that's the one area in which I won't change my mind. Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the topic. sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/68247/tao-dan-workshop-paris-2022 |
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Post by RufusScorpius on Oct 10, 2022 13:00:07 GMT
I'd choose Longsword for speed, increased angles of attack, use in bind (like a short spear). You could probably chop someone in half with the power of a Nodachi, but you don't have to chop someone in half to win a duel. Nodachi vs katana would be an interesting match up, maybe pitting a HUGE dude wielding the Nodachi. "...You could probably chop someone in half with the power of a Nodachi..." Yes, 100%. No doubt in my mind whatsoever."...but you don't have to chop someone in half to win a duel..." Also yes, 100%. A hit that cuts a tendon or inflicts extreme pain is good enough.
"...Nodachi vs katana would be an interesting match up..." Yes, I've done this. Katana guy is at a serious disadvantage unless he can get eyeball to eyeball close in which case you aren't using the swords anymore. The nodachi has so much momentum that it can smash through most defenses leaving the opponent open for kill strike if the first blow didn't manage to do the job. Plus the nodachi is actually lighting fast- albeit with limited working "box" in which it can match speed with a katana or similar sword. "...maybe pitting a HUGE dude wielding the Nodachi..." You don't need to be huge to use a nodachi. It's all about technique- but a big dude has a genetic advantage in any situation with any sword style right from the outset. |
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Oct 10, 2022 17:47:30 GMT
I think there are lots of misconceptions and myths around ōdachi and I do understand as they are extremely rare, only extremely few historical examples have survived to this day. Majority of them being in shrines, temples or museums in Japan. For years I have been tracking them down and I believe I should have very good gathering of old historical pre-Edo ones in my references.
In Japanese sword literature the term nodachi (野太刀) is very rarely seen. Instead Japanese sources almost always use ōdachi (大太刀). In general this just means great tachi and the length of the blade to classify one as such has been set to 3 shaku (90,9 cm). However in reality nothing changes if the blade length is 89 cm compared to 91 cm, the 2 cm difference is nothing in real life. Nodachi is mostly used by western people and Chinese manufacturers.
So far I have discovered 59 surviving ōdachi from 1100-1600 that have blade length between 90,9 cm to 150 cm. I excluded 11 ōdachi from the same time period as their blade lengths are 150 cm to 250 cm, and I personally think they are not usable anymore. I have possible info around dozen or few more from this era but I don't accurate measurements of them. I also excluded ōnaginata from this list even though the line between ōdachi and ōnaginata can become very hazy. Then there is a big bunch of after 1600 that I also excluded.
The average blade length of those 59 historical ōdachi (sub-150cm) is 110,7 cm. Now even though I would throw in a number like this you would still need to compare the historical ōdachi to each other as there can be huge difference in nakago length, curvature etc. You can throw in statistical stuff that can mean very little in reality.
I am no swordsman so I won't comment on usability etc. other than from historical view. Ōdachi were historically used both on horseback and on foot. Years ago I did some own translation about Muromachi period tactics for using ōdachi in the battlefield. What I gathered from that was that in that occasion there was a small unit in the frontlines that was equipped with ōdachi. They fought as a group separate from cavalry, and I believe their purpose was to break the enemy line and distort the units so others could follow them. I would personally see similar use as small unit of soldiers equipped with large twohanded swords in late medieval/renaissance era battles.
I cannot comment on the legitimacy of Koden Enshin Ryu that was linked but I am bit doubtful. I think some martial arts forums have more info on that. Ōdachi were battlefield weapons and they were not carried thrust through belt. Also you would be in battlefield gear when planning to use one. Slung from the hip or carried in hand or in back was their transportation form. I believe there is a myth going around that the blades were too long for warriors to draw them. I believe better way of understanding it would be that warrior had a follower who carried his stuff and then presented the sword to be drawn upon the battle.
Then on to replicas. Aside from Hanwei Ōdachi I do not really know proper replica ōdachi in the market. Hanwei Ōdachi was modelled after the famous ōdachi by Tomomitsu and while not 100% replica it is quite close copy of one. The Nodachi that Longquan vendors sell are pretty much just their normal katana lengthened to 36 inches. So if Windlass etc. swords are excluded as replica references, I would also do the same to great majority of Chinese made Japanese swords.
I own the Hanwei Ōdachi and I own a custom twohander from Regenyei for reference. I can attach a pic of the pair.
I used to have the Kensei Ōdachi but I was lucky to sell that one. Fun but horrible sword... Way too heavy for what it was. I can list it stats against a custom sword I got from Longquan forge, and it is easy to see the difference.
Kensei - Nagasa: 96,4 cm - Sori 3,4 cm - Motohaba 4,2 cm - Sakihaba 2,8 cm - Tsuka - 43 cm - Weight: 2460 grams.
Custom - Nagasa: 96,0 cm - Sori 3,2 cm - Motohaba 3,6 cm - Sakihaba 2,5 cm - Tsuka 33,5 cm - Weight: 1315 grams.
So you can see my custom ōdachi is quite close to Kensei Ōdachi in size but 1,1 kg lighter in weight. That should give some idea how Kensei one was way too massive in weight for it's size in uasability view.
One thing that replicas always fail to feature is ōdachi koshirae. That is in general subtype of tachi koshirae and there is great variation among the swords. Hanwei Ōdachi is the only one I've seen to even try to approach this. Chinese made tachi koshirae are just by default horrible...
Looks like I don't have comparison pic of Regenyei Zweihänder and Hanwei Ōdachi at the moment but here are two comparisons, my old custom LL Ōdachi with Windlass hand and half. and My YarinoHanzo custom with Hanwei Claymore.
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Yagoro
Member
Ikkyu in Kendo and Kenjutsu Practitioner
Posts: 1,584
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Post by Yagoro on Oct 10, 2022 18:03:48 GMT
I think there are lots of misconceptions and myths around ōdachi and I do understand as they are extremely rare, only extremely few historical examples have survived to this day. Majority of them being in shrines, temples or museums in Japan. For years I have been tracking them down and I believe I should have very good gathering of old historical pre-Edo ones in my references.
In Japanese sword literature the term nodachi (野太刀) is very rarely seen. Instead Japanese sources almost always use ōdachi (大太刀). In general this just means great tachi and the length of the blade to classify one as such has been set to 3 shaku (90,9 cm). However in reality nothing changes if the blade length is 89 cm compared to 91 cm, the 2 cm difference is nothing in real life. Nodachi is mostly used by western people and Chinese manufacturers.
So far I have discovered 59 surviving ōdachi from 1100-1600 that have blade length between 90,9 cm to 150 cm. I excluded 11 ōdachi from the same time period as their blade lengths are 150 cm to 250 cm, and I personally think they are not usable anymore. I have possible info around dozen or few more from this era but I don't accurate measurements of them. I also excluded ōnaginata from this list even though the line between ōdachi and ōnaginata can become very hazy. Then there is a big bunch of after 1600 that I also excluded.
The average blade length of those 59 historical ōdachi (sub-150cm) is 110,7 cm. Now even though I would throw in a number like this you would still need to compare the historical ōdachi to each other as there can be huge difference in nakago length, curvature etc. You can throw in statistical stuff that can mean very little in reality.
I am no swordsman so I won't comment on usability etc. other than from historical view. Ōdachi were historically used both on horseback and on foot. Years ago I did some own translation about Muromachi period tactics for using ōdachi in the battlefield. What I gathered from that was that in that occasion there was a small unit in the frontlines that was equipped with ōdachi. They fought as a group separate from cavalry, and I believe their purpose was to break the enemy line and distort the units so others could follow them. I would personally see similar use as small unit of soldiers equipped with large twohanded swords in late medieval/renaissance era battles.
I cannot comment on the legitimacy of Koden Enshin Ryu that was linked but I am bit doubtful. I think some martial arts forums have more info on that. Ōdachi were battlefield weapons and they were not carried thrust through belt. Also you would be in battlefield gear when planning to use one. Slung from the hip or carried in hand or in back was their transportation form. I believe there is a myth going around that the blades were too long for warriors to draw them. I believe better way of understanding it would be that warrior had a follower who carried his stuff and then presented the sword to be drawn upon the battle.
Then on to replicas. Aside from Hanwei Ōdachi I do not really know proper replica ōdachi in the market. Hanwei Ōdachi was modelled after the famous ōdachi by Tomomitsu and while not 100% replica it is quite close copy of one. The Nodachi that Longquan vendors sell are pretty much just their normal katana lengthened to 36 inches. So if Windlass etc. swords are excluded as replica references, I would also do the same to great majority of Chinese made Japanese swords.
I own the Hanwei Ōdachi and I own a custom twohander from Regenyei for reference. I can attach a pic of the pair.
I used to have the Kensei Ōdachi but I was lucky to sell that one. Fun but horrible sword... Way too heavy for what it was. I can list it stats against a custom sword I got from Longquan forge, and it is easy to see the difference.
Kensei - Nagasa: 96,4 cm - Sori 3,4 cm - Motohaba 4,2 cm - Sakihaba 2,8 cm - Tsuka - 43 cm - Weight: 2460 grams.
Custom - Nagasa: 96,0 cm - Sori 3,2 cm - Motohaba 3,6 cm - Sakihaba 2,5 cm - Tsuka 33,5 cm - Weight: 1315 grams.
So you can see my custom ōdachi is quite close to Kensei Ōdachi in size but 1,1 kg lighter in weight. That should give some idea how Kensei one was way too massive in weight for it's size in uasability view.
One thing that replicas always fail to feature is ōdachi koshirae. That is in general subtype of tachi koshirae and there is great variation among the swords. Hanwei Ōdachi is the only one I've seen to even try to approach this. Chinese made tachi koshirae are just by default horrible...
Looks like I don't have comparison pic of Regenyei Zweihänder and Hanwei Ōdachi at the moment but here are two comparisons, my old custom LL Ōdachi with Windlass hand and half. and My YarinoHanzo custom with Hanwei Claymore.
Thank you for your input jussi. It makes sense now the more that I think of it that the "unable to draw ones weapon thing" was a myth. Probably invented during the edo or meiji due to the huge ceremonial odachi. |
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Yagoro
Member
Ikkyu in Kendo and Kenjutsu Practitioner
Posts: 1,584
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Post by Yagoro on Oct 10, 2022 18:10:29 GMT
Btw does anyone still have the hanwei odachi up for sale? probably the best replica on the market.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Oct 10, 2022 18:46:34 GMT
I'd choose Longsword for speed, increased angles of attack, use in bind (like a short spear). You could probably chop someone in half with the power of a Nodachi, but you don't have to chop someone in half to win a duel. Nodachi vs katana would be an interesting match up, maybe pitting a HUGE dude wielding the Nodachi. "...You could probably chop someone in half with the power of a Nodachi..." Yes, 100%. No doubt in my mind whatsoever."...but you don't have to chop someone in half to win a duel..." Also yes, 100%. A hit that cuts a tendon or inflicts extreme pain is good enough.
"...Nodachi vs katana would be an interesting match up..." Yes, I've done this. Katana guy is at a serious disadvantage unless he can get eyeball to eyeball close in which case you aren't using the swords anymore. The nodachi has so much momentum that it can smash through most defenses leaving the opponent open for kill strike if the first blow didn't manage to do the job. Plus the nodachi is actually lighting fast- albeit with limited working "box" in which it can match speed with a katana or similar sword. "...maybe pitting a HUGE dude wielding the Nodachi..." You don't need to be huge to use a nodachi. It's all about technique- but a big dude has a genetic advantage in any situation with any sword style right from the outset. One thing I wondered is would something akin to a Japanese castle setting nullify that advantage? I think those are often cramped enough that kesagiri would need to be done so a katana doesn’t hit the roof. Probably relevant since what made early katana/uchigatana widespread amongst blue bloods was that the leadership like Ashikaga Yoshinori was starting to get assassinated during dinner and the like so they needed a sword that could be carried in such places and used. Also why early katana even if they look like tachi have less curve, quicker on the draw. |
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Post by RufusScorpius on Oct 10, 2022 19:29:34 GMT
I agree with Jussi about the odachi as a battlefield weapon. This is in fact it's primary purpose, and any carry method was merely for transportation. The warrior would already have the sword out and in hand at the start of a battle. Having to quick draw to defend oneself was the job of the katana.
Furthermore, odachi was specifically designed for breaking spear formations. Jean Baptiste did the research and decoded the texts and turned them into motion and technique, that is why I hold him in high regard when it comes to practical application of that particular sword. It's not really a sword vs sword kind of weapon, although it does well at that also.
And on the topic of close quarters combat... interestingly we haven't discussed much on this forum about fight strategy. Technique is how the engineering of the blade interacts with human physiology through 3 dimensional space, but strategy is a different topic- it's concerned with how you will gameplay the fight. The odachi is not designed for close quarters per se, however on the crowded battlefield it's very important not to kill or maim your own troops so doing the whirling Dervish with a honking big az blade isn't permissible. The odachi techniques are therefore surprisingly tight for this very reason. Now how that would translate to a castle hallway is subject to interpretation. I did a lot of close quarter sparring with different weapon types when I was in Germany, unfortunately we didn't have access to an odachi since it was just one week after my clinic in Paris with Jean Baptiste. It is on my bucket list for the next time I'm in Europe.
I will say that in a situation where you have to "run what you brung" and fight odachi inside the house, then I think it would do fairly well- or at least not as badly as you would think. My experience in tight spaces is that you can pretty much forget all about any slicing cuts, it's all going to be stabby type work - even the katana is too long for any time of slice cuts (I hit the wall plenty of times even though I was fully aware of them). The odachi could be employed in a cone in which the tip is more or less stationary and the hands are moved to block and set up a strike. The length might even be an asset if your opponent is using a much shorter blade. The other issue that came up in tight space sparring is that you really have to keep things front- any side movement will be met with a thrust from you opponent or a cut to the forearms. Perhaps the size of an odachi will force this frontal posture?
Surprisingly the very best sword I found in tight spaces is the cutlass (with katana a close second). It's curve and larger tip is well suited to a high side thrust to the face that can go around the opponent's defense. Kind of like those curved needles a surgeon uses. I have a vid on the technique threads that shows some of this close quarter sparring.
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Post by soulfromheart on Oct 10, 2022 23:46:05 GMT
As an aside, how do you like your long sabre by Art of Fire and Iron? I'm really curious about that piece as it has tons of cool style points and the proportions on it are in a ballpark of interest for me. How's the carved wood grip feel in particular? I've been especially curious about that component. I love it. No idea if the proportions are actually historical (they do carefully and passionately study historical examples though) but it doesn't feel as heavy as I thought it would (about 1.6kg) and is very well balanced. The grip is very comfortable (I have no idea what wood they used though). It seems to be lacquered (or is it some varnish ?). With all the carvings, even with sweaty hands, it actually isn't slippy at all.   The blade is folded steel (...I did ask for a hamon so mine is actually DH...)  Strangely, this sword, and the XXa from Swordmakery Elgur I took a picture together with, seem to be my two swords which came unsharpened one third from the guard. I don't know if it is historical, intentional or a (lazy ?) mistake but haven't had time to inquiry about it. I vaguely recall something about newly forged nihonto being the same case before acquiring the sharpness after subsequent polishings but these two swords are Chinese and European...🤔🤷 The Ming Long Saber was shipped with a copy of the Dan Dao Fa Xuan but as it is even longer than the sword or me when unrolled, I haven't had the occasion to take a good look at it either. 😅 |
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Oct 11, 2022 0:17:38 GMT
I need to check and confirm that it was also a nanbokucho wars thing but many samurai (not ashigaru) had attendants and those would certainly carry their field weapons and help them unsheath. Which would certainly happen before a battle barring weird ambushes like okehazama.
Also that nodachi function sounds oddly similar to zweihander’s niche. I guess with all its momentum and leverage it could sheer a pike.
No wait, word for pre edo would be bushi. Anyways they had attendants
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Post by zabazagobo on Oct 11, 2022 2:06:15 GMT
As an aside, how do you like your long sabre by Art of Fire and Iron? I'm really curious about that piece as it has tons of cool style points and the proportions on it are in a ballpark of interest for me. How's the carved wood grip feel in particular? I've been especially curious about that component. I love it. No idea if the proportions are actually historical (they do carefully and passionately study historical examples though) but it doesn't feel as heavy as I thought it would (about 1.6kg) and is very well balanced. The grip is very comfortable (I have no idea what wood they used though). It seems to be lacquered (or is it some varnish ?). With all the carvings, even with sweaty hands, it actually isn't slippy at all. The blade is folded steel (...I did ask for a hamon so mine is actually DH...) Strangely, this sword, and the XXa from Swordmakery Elgur I took a picture together with, seem to be my two swords which came unsharpened one third from the guard. I don't know if it is historical, intentional or a (lazy ?) mistake but haven't had time to inquiry about it. I vaguely recall something about newly forged nihonto being the same case before acquiring the sharpness after subsequent polishings but these two swords are Chinese and European...🤔🤷 The Ming Long Saber was shipped with a copy of the Dan Dao Fa Xuan but as it is even longer than the sword or me when unrolled, I haven't had the occasion to take a good look at it either. 😅 Very cool! Thanks for sharing pictures of yours. I'm glad to hear that it hits all the marks, and also interesting to learn you can order TH or DH. Thanks for clarifying about the grip, I was interested in how the carving would affect handling and if it is uncomfortable or slippery. Hearing none of that to be the case is a nice knowledge drop.
I also recall that the bottom third in some traditions was left relatively dull since typically no actions take place there aside from parries and deflections, which a sharp edge is unnecessary for.
The scroll bit is a nice touch, cool to hear that it's a legit representation. Aside from practice, the sword and scroll would make a rather excellent solo display separate from the usual sword racks.
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