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Post by JH Lee on Oct 8, 2022 4:04:31 GMT
TL;DR -- Could a Japanese nodachi (appropriately profiled so that it's not cumbersome) move with as much agility and speed as a similarly long Euro sword, such as the ones used in the Liechtenauer-derived HEMA systems?
This is NOT the start of yet another "let's beat the undead zombie horse of samurai vs knight".... That said, I have to say that both my training bokken and shinken are 28.5'' nagasa. Going against an opponent with ~8 inch reach advantage (not to mention a second sharp edge) and no discernible disadvantage in terms of speed and agility feels like setting myself up for failure. Members of my school will, at some point in the not too distant future, accept the friendly invitation of a local HEMA club to exchange knowledge and perspectives with each other. I just want to make sure that we won't go there only to get consistently pancaked.
Yes, yes... it's not the system or the sword but the wielder, etc etc etc. But between comparably matched opponents in a controlled environment, variables like reach advantage DO matter a whole heck of a lot, regardless of how nimble your footwork may be. At least, that's the way it seems to me.
Thoughts welcome. Because I'm seriously thinking about ordering some extra long bokken (36'' nagasa) and eventually a custom nodachi to match.
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Oct 8, 2022 4:10:01 GMT
Well a nodachi is much stiffer than most longswords, also depending on the size of the sword you will most likely outrange most types of longsword. If a sufficiently trained user of the weapon is up against a longsword user of equal skill, Id have to go with nodachi, just based off the length advantage most of them have. Longsword would probably be more agile, but again it depends.
Also just saw you mention the fact that theyre similarly agile. They arent, even the best nodachi will most likely not be as agile as longsword equivalents. However I do not see that as a negative, especially since Nodachi have so much mass behind them that it would be very difficult to parry or block one with a longsword. If you want to look at one that would be of similar agility, look at those large dao that the ming dynasty use which were based off nodachi.
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Post by howler on Oct 8, 2022 4:28:09 GMT
I'd choose Longsword for speed, increased angles of attack, use in bind (like a short spear). You could probably chop someone in half with the power of a Nodachi, but you don't have to chop someone in half to win a duel. Nodachi vs katana would be an interesting match up, maybe pitting a HUGE dude wielding the Nodachi.
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Oct 8, 2022 4:38:44 GMT
I'd choose Longsword for speed, increased angles of attack, use in bind (like a short spear). You could probably chop someone in half with the power of a Nodachi, but you don't have to chop someone in half to win a duel. Nodachi vs katana would be an interesting match up, maybe pitting a HUGE dude wielding the Nodachi. You can bind with a nodachi? Have you ever tried fighting someone with a clear range advantage? Its almost impossible if the other person is of equal or better skill than you. Also yes, you can half sword with a nodachi |
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Oct 8, 2022 4:43:43 GMT
A face off that would be interesting is nodachi vs zweihander, however. Imo a better matchup is o-katana vs longsword or tachi vs longsword. Attachments:
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Post by JH Lee on Oct 8, 2022 4:45:30 GMT
To be clear, I am considering a nodachi that is on the shorter end of the spectrum, so that it is roughly the same length as what I have gathered is popularly used in Liechtenauer: ~36.5'' blade length.
If I took my katana (28.5'' nagasa) and extended its length 8 inches, would it allow me to overcome the reach disadvantage without a significant drop-off in speed or agility?
I remember there used to be a monster nodachi from the now-defunct company, Kensei. That was rather beefy, from what I recall. That's not at all what I want. Probably, unless the blade width and thickness were not proportionately increased with the increase in length, I would risk the blade becoming more prone to taking a bend/set (or possibly breaking). Then again, I would only order such a shinken in TH spring steel.
FWIW, didn't Sasaki Kojiro wield a similarly long (but not overly long) katana to great effect?
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Post by JH Lee on Oct 8, 2022 4:48:25 GMT
A face off that would be interesting is nodachi vs zweihander, however. Imo a better matchup is o-katana vs longsword or tachi vs longsword. Agreed. But I am thinking that a 36.5'' nagasa blade is not an o-katana or long tachi anymore but on the shorter end of the nodachi lineup. |
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Oct 8, 2022 4:55:15 GMT
To be clear, I am considering a nodachi that is on the shorter end of the spectrum, so that it is roughly the same length as what I have gathered is popularly used in Liechtenauer: ~36.5'' blade length. If I took my katana (28.5'' nagasa) and extended its length 8 inches, would it allow me to overcome the reach disadvantage without a significant drop-off in speed or agility? I remember there used to be a monster nodachi from the now-defunct company, Kensei. That was rather beefy, from what I recall. That's not at all what I want. Probably, unless the blade width and thickness were not proportionately increased with the increase in length, I would risk the blade becoming more prone to taking a bend/set (or possibly breaking). Then again, I would only order such a shinken in TH spring steel. FWIW, didn't Sasaki Kojiro wield a similarly long (but not overly long) katana to great effect? Ah i would consider that more of an o-katana then, but I think the official cut off for an o katana is 34' blade. They say Kojiro used a nodachi, but he probably used what we would consider now an o-katana. That makes things tougher. On one hand, its harder to gauge the range of straight swords when compared with curved swords, so thats a point in the longswords favor. On the other hand, with a curved sword such as a nodachi, you can do push cuts to great affect, so there is not as much emphasis on applying power to ones cuts. Also im assuming this is both combatants with no armor on. Also japanese swords tend to have more tip control since the grips are longer than on most european swords, however european swords tend to feel lighter since the pob is more towards the grip. Answer is depends on way too many variables Btw the push cut thing is one of the reasons why you cant wrap your fingers around a japanese sword blade when doing "half sword" techniques. Rather you rest your palm on the mune closer to the kissaki. |
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Post by JH Lee on Oct 8, 2022 5:13:05 GMT
To be clear, I am considering a nodachi that is on the shorter end of the spectrum, so that it is roughly the same length as what I have gathered is popularly used in Liechtenauer: ~36.5'' blade length. If I took my katana (28.5'' nagasa) and extended its length 8 inches, would it allow me to overcome the reach disadvantage without a significant drop-off in speed or agility? I remember there used to be a monster nodachi from the now-defunct company, Kensei. That was rather beefy, from what I recall. That's not at all what I want. Probably, unless the blade width and thickness were not proportionately increased with the increase in length, I would risk the blade becoming more prone to taking a bend/set (or possibly breaking). Then again, I would only order such a shinken in TH spring steel. FWIW, didn't Sasaki Kojiro wield a similarly long (but not overly long) katana to great effect? Ah i would consider that more of an o-katana then, but I think the official cut off for an o katana is 34' blade. They say Kojiro used a nodachi, but he probably used what we would consider now an o-katana. That makes things tougher. On one hand, its harder to gauge the range of straight swords when compared with curved swords, so thats a point in the longswords favor. On the other hand, with a curved sword such as a nodachi, you can do push cuts to great affect, so there is not as much emphasis on applying power to ones cuts. Also im assuming this is both combatants with no armor on. Also japanese swords tend to have more tip control since the grips are longer than on most european swords, however european swords tend to feel lighter since the pob is more towards the grip. Answer is depends on way too many variables Btw the push cut thing is one of the reasons why you cant wrap your fingers around a japanese sword blade when doing "half sword" techniques. Rather you rest your palm on the mune closer to the kissaki. Where I train, once we have gained sufficient understanding of a kumitachi sequence, we "play" with the parameters a bit and go "off script." In such free-form exchanges, it has seemed to me that the occasions for safely putting one's hand against the mune are pretty few and far between. And possibly never in the stylistically "pretty" but reckless way that some do so with their fingers dangling over the sides extending beyond the ha. Thank you for your thoughtful replies, by the way. I never thought I would ever seriously think about learning to use such a long katana.... Over the years, I kind of "dialed in" my comfort zone to around 27" for effective and safe batto and noto. Can't even imagine yet what adjustments I'll need to make to execute a nukitsuke with a 36.5" blade, if ever at all.🤷🏻♂️ |
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Oct 8, 2022 5:15:15 GMT
Ah i would consider that more of an o-katana then, but I think the official cut off for an o katana is 34' blade. They say Kojiro used a nodachi, but he probably used what we would consider now an o-katana. That makes things tougher. On one hand, its harder to gauge the range of straight swords when compared with curved swords, so thats a point in the longswords favor. On the other hand, with a curved sword such as a nodachi, you can do push cuts to great affect, so there is not as much emphasis on applying power to ones cuts. Also im assuming this is both combatants with no armor on. Also japanese swords tend to have more tip control since the grips are longer than on most european swords, however european swords tend to feel lighter since the pob is more towards the grip. Answer is depends on way too many variables Btw the push cut thing is one of the reasons why you cant wrap your fingers around a japanese sword blade when doing "half sword" techniques. Rather you rest your palm on the mune closer to the kissaki. Where I train, once we have gained sufficient understanding of a kumitachi sequence, we "play" with the parameters a bit and go "off script." In such free-form exchanges, it has seemed to me that the occasions for safely putting one's hand against the mune are pretty few and far between. And possibly never in the stylistically "pretty" but reckless way that some do so with their fingers dangling over the sides extending beyond the ha. Thank you for your thoughtful replies, by the way. I never thought I would ever seriously think about learning to use such a long katana.... Over the years, I kind of "dialed in" my comfort zone to around 27" for effective and safe batto and noto. Can't even imagine yet what adjustments I'll need to make to execute a nukitsuke with a 36.5" blade, if ever at all.🤷🏻♂️ Lol I feel you. I'd probably need to grow a foot to do nukitsuke with a 36.5 inch katana. I currently use 27.5 to 28.5 nagasa blades. I like how short a katana is, but maybe that's just because I'm a fan of how little space is truly needed to practice with one. |
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Post by Kane Shen on Oct 8, 2022 5:31:55 GMT
Well a nodachi is much stiffer than most longswords, also depending on the size of the sword you will most likely outrange most types of longsword. If a sufficiently trained user of the weapon is up against a longsword user of equal skill, Id have to go with nodachi, just based off the length advantage most of them have. Longsword would probably be more agile, but again it depends. Also just saw you mention the fact that theyre similarly agile. They arent, even the best nodachi will most likely not be as agile as longsword equivalents. However I do not see that as a negative, especially since Nodachi have so much mass behind them that it would be very difficult to parry or block one with a longsword. If you want to look at one that would be of similar agility, look at those large dao that the ming dynasty use which were based off nodachi. Nodachi generally have 3 shaku of blade length, which is 35.79". European longswords have blade length ranging from 35" to 43". You can see the average longsword has a longer reach than the nodachi. Medieval swords with even longer blades are generally categorized as two-handed swords, such as the Wallace Collection A474 and Royal Armouries IX.1787. Clearly those have even bigger reach advantage over the average nodachi than longswords have. Renaissance swords like the zweihanders, spadones and montantes are even longer and larger, reaching 200cm sometimes. So far we are only talking about functional swords that weigh under 10 lbs, not the even larger parade swords and ceremonial swords. I know there are extreme examples of odachi or nodachi such as the 破邪の御太刀 reaching almost 5m, but without a shadow of a doubt, weighing in at 165 lbs it is never meant to be an usable sword. As you can see the photo below, it is more of a curiosity item like a statue, comparable to the "World's Largest Bowie Knife" erected in Texas that's 20.5 feet long. Therefore we should exclude these from serious discussions involving functionality.  Now I understand there are some variations of nihonto's distal taper, but in general they tend to be between 25-40%, with a profile taper also in that range, this dictates that the weight distribution are totally different from an European longsword of any kind. Obviously the mass distribution of longswords vary vastly among different types, but in general, they tend to taper 50-80% in the thickness, and 33-80% in the profile--that is, if we even include the late 13th and early 14th century grete swerde of war, that are generally not considered as longswords as no complex techniques were prescribed by period treatises as longswords are. But even so, the mass on the upper portion of the blades of these hand-and-a-half proportion swords are much less than the base, comparing to Japanese swords like Nodachi. This means that when given the same blade length, an average nodachi would accelerate much much slower than the average longsword. It takes much longer to stop, and it takes much longer to redirect. If we only consider the blade component, that is. If we take the hilt mass into consideration, the counterbalance of the pommel at the end of a much longer lever, than the tsuba, means that the point of balance on European longswords are also generally much closer to the hilt than that of nodachi of a equal length. This means that the action point is closer to the hand, and further exacerbate the differences in operational speed. It's not a surprise that nodachi were often used from horseback, while longswords are often used on foot as battle swords or dueling swords, as cavalry swords like the nodachi don't need to be anywhere nearly as nimble because recovery and redirect are a much lesser concern in mounted combat. However, in a duel on foot, an average longsword's mass distribution means it either has a significant reach advantage over nodachi, or if the size (reach) is equal, the longsword would have a significant speed advantage over the nodachi. Of course there's a great deal of variations among nihonto. And if we look at an antique nodachi in this post, in which the OP took great pains to record the distal taper and profile taper on this 16th century nodachi every 2-3", we can see that this particular example have close to 43% profile taper and 43% distal taper. It's not exactly there yet to be comparable to an average European longsword yet, but it is indeed a much much nimbler nodachi than the average nihonto. Kudos to the OP DigsFossils-n-Knives for provideing such measurements, as mass distribution and handling are typically not of any concern among antique nihonto owners. However, if we are talking about the extreme end of the spectrum, we can easily look at any late medieval longsword like the type XVa, XVII, and XVIIIb, like the Royal Armouries IX.1106, shown below.  The width near the tip is easily less than 1/5 of the width of the blade, and the thickness near the tip is less than half of the thickness at the base. While the nimble example of nodachi shown above has a mass distribution that loses 67% of the weight of the base at the tip, this longsword loses over 90% of the mass of the base at the tip. It is much quicker to rotate, much more precise with its point, and much easier to redirect in parry and riposte. Take a look at this document here (108M PDF download, be aware) detailing the measurement parameters of 20 European edged weapons in the Gotti Collection, from colossal two-handed swords, to rapiers, sideswords, off-handed swords all the way to daggers. Other than one very short dagger, I cannot find ANY bladed weapon that has less than 50% of distal taper. None. A great number of them have 70-80% of distal taper, the thickness near the tip is often only 1/3 or 1/4 of the thickness of the base. Combined with the width, the fuller setup and the specifics of cross section every 2" or so, the document listed the mass distribution along the entire blade of each weapon in great detail. It goes even much further than what DigsFossils-n-Knives shared in his post. This kind of knowledge is what the sword community needs, instead of talking about personal feelings. The mass distribution dictates how a sword moves. So to answer JH Lee 's question, indeed some nodachi can definitely move with certain degree of finesse, but in general nowhere near the nimbleness of European swords of equal size. Let's be honest, they don't move as nimble as Korean swords, as Chinese swords, as Indian swords, Turkish swords or Arabic swords either. Those typically have a lot more profile and distal taper than Japanese swords. This doesn't mean Japanese swords are bad, or clumsy. There is a reason that the average nagasa of an average katana is short. Even though it is a hand-and-a-half sword used primarily with two hands, their blades tend to be a lot shorter than many one-handed swords from other cultures. This is to sacrifice the reach to ensure the maneuverability, and the durability. Durability is always the concern of paramount importance in Japanese sword making, and the inability to reliably create steel blades with spring tempering made them resort to making the blade thick--well at the base they are not thicker than swords from other cultures, really. But on the upper portion, they remain very thick as they don't taper much in either the thickness or the width. Therefore, to ensure it is still nimble (yes, I do know that katana of 24-28" nagasa tend to be very nimble) in foot combat, they need to make them short. The reach isn't much of a concern, as if your opponents also use short swords of similar reach, nobody really has a clear advantage on reach. However, Japanese swordsmen do value the advantage of reach. If you look at the swords the 47 ronins carried on their final mission, many of them chose to carry the longest sword in their possession--many have a nagasa of 2 shaku 7 or 8 sun, and some even have 3 shaku. This reaffirms the importance of reach in mortal combat involving edge weapons. So far we are just talking about the handling of longswords and nodachi. If you are taking versatility into consideration, longswords clearly have the advantage of having two edges enabling many unique techniques involving false edge cuts with speed advantage, or coming from unexpected angles like the Zwerchau and Schielhau as riposte after parry. Longswords can be better used in half-swording stance (yes I am aware that you can support the spine of a katana in thrust but it isn't nearly as stable and versatile in many applications to use the sword as a lever in grappling and takedown), the crossguard have tactical usage at extreme close-range: the quillon can strike out as quick blunt damage, it can be used for hooking and assist in binding. One with a longsword can also dish out a lot of percussive damage with pommel or crossguard in mordhau stance. The tip geometry is much much better at piercing maille armor and thick and tough textile protections. |
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Post by Kane Shen on Oct 8, 2022 5:40:12 GMT
Where I train, once we have gained sufficient understanding of a kumitachi sequence, we "play" with the parameters a bit and go "off script." In such free-form exchanges, it has seemed to me that the occasions for safely putting one's hand against the mune are pretty few and far between. And possibly never in the stylistically "pretty" but reckless way that some do so with their fingers dangling over the sides extending beyond the ha. Thank you for your thoughtful replies, by the way. I never thought I would ever seriously think about learning to use such a long katana.... Over the years, I kind of "dialed in" my comfort zone to around 27" for effective and safe batto and noto. Can't even imagine yet what adjustments I'll need to make to execute a nukitsuke with a 36.5" blade, if ever at all.🤷🏻♂️ Lol I feel you. I'd probably need to grow a foot to do nukitsuke with a 36.5 inch katana. I currently use 27.5 to 28.5 nagasa blades. I like how short a katana is, but maybe that's just because I'm a fan of how little space is truly needed to practice with one. Heh, I'm 6 feet 1, and I can execute nukitsuke with a 36" katana with ease, shown below (time coded). In fact, I can draw cut with a 40" blade just fine as shown here: Still, I would prefer a longsword any time. |
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Post by zabazagobo on Oct 8, 2022 6:23:42 GMT
A face off that would be interesting is nodachi vs zweihander, however. Imo a better matchup is o-katana vs longsword or tachi vs longsword. Agreed. But I am thinking that a 36.5'' nagasa blade is not an o-katana or long tachi anymore but on the shorter end of the nodachi lineup. I recall a general rule of thumb based on shaku, (1 shaku is roughly 1 foot in length) 1 shaku or less, tanto 1-2 shaku, wakizashi 2-3 shaku, katana 3+ shaku, odachi
So a 36 in. blade would be an odachi-lite.
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Post by howler on Oct 8, 2022 8:10:40 GMT
I'd choose Longsword for speed, increased angles of attack, use in bind (like a short spear). You could probably chop someone in half with the power of a Nodachi, but you don't have to chop someone in half to win a duel. Nodachi vs katana would be an interesting match up, maybe pitting a HUGE dude wielding the Nodachi. You can bind with a nodachi? Have you ever tried fighting someone with a clear range advantage? Its almost impossible if the other person is of equal or better skill than you. Also yes, you can half sword with a nodachi I agree with you on length and in another thread (longsword vs katana that gets WAAAY into the weeds) gave longer bladed longsword advantage over katana because of greater range (among other reasons), but for this comparison I'm thinking Longsword and Nodachi are of the same length. You can bind with about anything though lighter, straight, symmetrical (spear like) nature of longsword is just better at doing so. |
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Post by bradc on Oct 8, 2022 8:19:58 GMT
A face off that would be interesting is nodachi vs zweihander, however. Imo a better matchup is o-katana vs longsword or tachi vs longsword. The internet is a small world... That's my Sensei with my buddies Hanwei Odachi. That thing is a absolute beast to draw and swing around. The nagasa is 49" of the 67" total length. Definitely not a nimble tool. (But fun to try to use) |
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Oct 8, 2022 13:48:08 GMT
Well a nodachi is much stiffer than most longswords, also depending on the size of the sword you will most likely outrange most types of longsword. If a sufficiently trained user of the weapon is up against a longsword user of equal skill, Id have to go with nodachi, just based off the length advantage most of them have. Longsword would probably be more agile, but again it depends. Also just saw you mention the fact that theyre similarly agile. They arent, even the best nodachi will most likely not be as agile as longsword equivalents. However I do not see that as a negative, especially since Nodachi have so much mass behind them that it would be very difficult to parry or block one with a longsword. If you want to look at one that would be of similar agility, look at those large dao that the ming dynasty use which were based off nodachi. Nodachi generally have 3 shaku of blade length, which is 35.79". European longswords have blade length ranging from 35" to 43". You can see the average longsword has a longer reach than the nodachi. Medieval swords with even longer blades are generally categorized as two-handed swords, such as the Wallace Collection A474 and Royal Armouries IX.1787. Clearly those have even bigger reach advantage over the average nodachi than longswords have. Renaissance swords like the zweihanders, spadones and montantes are even longer and larger, reaching 200cm sometimes. So far we are only talking about functional swords that weigh under 10 lbs, not the even larger parade swords and ceremonial swords. I know there are extreme examples of odachi or nodachi such as the 破邪の御太刀 reaching almost 5m, but without a shadow of a doubt, weighing in at 165 lbs it is never meant to be an usable sword. As you can see the photo below, it is more of a curiosity item like a statue, comparable to the "World's Largest Bowie Knife" erected in Texas that's 20.5 feet long. Therefore we should exclude these from serious discussions involving functionality. Now I understand there are some variations of nihonto's distal taper, but in general they tend to be between 25-40%, with a profile taper also in that range, this dictates that the weight distribution are totally different from an European longsword of any kind. Obviously the mass distribution of longswords vary vastly among different types, but in general, they tend to taper 50-80% in the thickness, and 33-80% in the profile--that is, if we even include the late 13th and early 14th century grete swerde of war, that are generally not considered as longswords as no complex techniques were prescribed by period treatises as longswords are. But even so, the mass on the upper portion of the blades of these hand-and-a-half proportion swords are much less than the base, comparing to Japanese swords like Nodachi. This means that when given the same blade length, an average nodachi would accelerate much much slower than the average longsword. It takes much longer to stop, and it takes much longer to redirect. If we only consider the blade component, that is. If we take the hilt mass into consideration, the counterbalance of the pommel at the end of a much longer lever, than the tsuba, means that the point of balance on European longswords are also generally much closer to the hilt than that of nodachi of a equal length. This means that the action point is closer to the hand, and further exacerbate the differences in operational speed. It's not a surprise that nodachi were often used from horseback, while longswords are often used on foot as battle swords or dueling swords, as cavalry swords like the nodachi don't need to be anywhere nearly as nimble because recovery and redirect are a much lesser concern in mounted combat. However, in a duel on foot, an average longsword's mass distribution means it either has a significant reach advantage over nodachi, or if the size (reach) is equal, the longsword would have a significant speed advantage over the nodachi. Of course there's a great deal of variations among nihonto. And if we look at an antique nodachi in this post, in which the OP took great pains to record the distal taper and profile taper on this 16th century nodachi every 2-3", we can see that this particular example have close to 43% profile taper and 43% distal taper. It's not exactly there yet to be comparable to an average European longsword yet, but it is indeed a much much nimbler nodachi than the average nihonto. Kudos to the OP DigsFossils-n-Knives for provideing such measurements, as mass distribution and handling are typically not of any concern among antique nihonto owners. However, if we are talking about the extreme end of the spectrum, we can easily look at any late medieval longsword like the type XVa, XVII, and XVIIIb, like the Royal Armouries IX.1106, shown below. The width near the tip is easily less than 1/5 of the width of the blade, and the thickness near the tip is less than half of the thickness at the base. While the nimble example of nodachi shown above has a mass distribution that loses 67% of the weight of the base at the tip, this longsword loses over 90% of the mass of the base at the tip. It is much quicker to rotate, much more precise with its point, and much easier to redirect in parry and riposte. Take a look at this document here (108M PDF download, be aware) detailing the measurement parameters of 20 European edged weapons in the Gotti Collection, from colossal two-handed swords, to rapiers, sideswords, off-handed swords all the way to daggers. Other than one very short dagger, I cannot find ANY bladed weapon that has less than 50% of distal taper. None. A great number of them have 70-80% of distal taper, the thickness near the tip is often only 1/3 or 1/4 of the thickness of the base. Combined with the width, the fuller setup and the specifics of cross section every 2" or so, the document listed the mass distribution along the entire blade of each weapon in great detail. It goes even much further than what DigsFossils-n-Knives shared in his post. This kind of knowledge is what the sword community needs, instead of talking about personal feelings. The mass distribution dictates how a sword moves. So to answer JH Lee 's question, indeed some nodachi can definitely move with certain degree of finesse, but in general nowhere near the nimbleness of European swords of equal size. Let's be honest, they don't move as nimble as Korean swords, as Chinese swords, as Indian swords, Turkish swords or Arabic swords either. Those typically have a lot more profile and distal taper than Japanese swords. This doesn't mean Japanese swords are bad, or clumsy. There is a reason that the average nagasa of an average katana is short. Even though it is a hand-and-a-half sword used primarily with two hands, their blades tend to be a lot shorter than many one-handed swords from other cultures. This is to sacrifice the reach to ensure the maneuverability, and the durability. Durability is always the concern of paramount importance in Japanese sword making, and the inability to reliably create steel blades with spring tempering made them resort to making the blade thick--well at the base they are not thicker than swords from other cultures, really. But on the upper portion, they remain very thick as they don't taper much in either the thickness or the width. Therefore, to ensure it is still nimble (yes, I do know that katana of 24-28" nagasa tend to be very nimble) in foot combat, they need to make them short. The reach isn't much of a concern, as if your opponents also use short swords of similar reach, nobody really has a clear advantage on reach. However, Japanese swordsmen do value the advantage of reach. If you look at the swords the 47 ronins carried on their final mission, many of them chose to carry the longest sword in their possession--many have a nagasa of 2 shaku 7 or 8 sun, and some even have 3 shaku. This reaffirms the importance of reach in mortal combat involving edge weapons. So far we are just talking about the handling of longswords and nodachi. If you are taking versatility into consideration, longswords clearly have the advantage of having two edges enabling many unique techniques involving false edge cuts with speed advantage, or coming from unexpected angles like the Zwerchau and Schielhau as riposte after parry. Longswords can be better used in half-swording stance (yes I am aware that you can support the spine of a katana in thrust but it isn't nearly as stable and versatile in many applications to use the sword as a lever in grappling and takedown), the crossguard have tactical usage at extreme close-range: the quillon can strike out as quick blunt damage, it can be used for hooking and assist in binding. One with a longsword can also dish out a lot of percussive damage with pommel or crossguard in mordhau stance. The tip geometry is much much better at piercing maille armor and thick and tough textile protections. 1.) Nodachi weren't commonly used on horseback, in fact they were intended as anti cavalry weapons 2.) The whole argument with distal taper and tip acceleration as to how well the weapon will cut is rather dumb considering the nodachi is curved, which complicates the whole matter.
3.) Nodachi and odachi are the same thing. If you are going to say most longsword have between a 36 and 43" blade length, then you can't just generalize that most nodachi had only 3 Shaku blades. That wasn't standardized at all, and if anything you see larger nodachi more around 4 Shaku, especially since multiple sources state that nodachi users of the nanbokucho needed to have a retainer so that they could unsheathe their weapon.
4 )it's quite obvious you have no experience in Japanese swordsmanship as most things you mentioned the longsword being capable of, Japanese swords are as well, it just requires you to turn your wrists. My koryu has a version of zwerchau and schielchau, it just requires fancy handwork.
5.) Also we're talking no armor so the longswords ability to counter chainmail isn't an advantage here, although it's thrusting ability still stands |
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Yagoro
Member
Ikkyu in Kendo and Kenjutsu Practitioner
Posts: 1,584
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Post by Yagoro on Oct 8, 2022 13:50:32 GMT
Lol I feel you. I'd probably need to grow a foot to do nukitsuke with a 36.5 inch katana. I currently use 27.5 to 28.5 nagasa blades. I like how short a katana is, but maybe that's just because I'm a fan of how little space is truly needed to practice with one. Heh, I'm 6 feet 1, and I can execute nukitsuke with a 36" katana with ease, shown below (time coded). In fact, I can draw cut with a 40" blade just fine as shown here: Still, I would prefer a longsword any time. Lol I'm 5'8". Max blade length I can nukitsuke is 30", and thats with almost improper technique. |
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Post by JH Lee on Oct 8, 2022 13:57:13 GMT
Heh, I'm 6 feet 1, and I can execute nukitsuke with a 36" katana with ease, shown below (time coded). [omit] Still, I would prefer a longsword any time. Lol I'm 5'8". Max blade length I can nukitsuke is 30", and thats with almost improper technique. In my experience, doing sayabiki and nukitsuke while the saya is in the obi against your body makes things very different than when just holding the saya in the hand. |
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Post by Kane Shen on Oct 8, 2022 18:36:01 GMT
1.) Nodachi weren't commonly used on horseback, in fact they were intended as anti cavalry weapons Nodachi were indeed often used on horseback, see the illustration below. I never said they were exclusively used from horse. The fact that they can be used against cavalry isn't the same that they can handle like swords used in foot combat against an opponent also on foot. It's like saying "well lances are not just used by riders, they are also used against riders". The whole point is that many nodachi were used in scenarios involving riders, to launch a singular slash as someone rides by, whether by the rider himself, or against him, therefore recovery and the nimbleness to redirect in parry and riposte isn't a concern.  2.) The whole argument with distal taper and tip acceleration as to how well the weapon will cut is rather dumb considering the nodachi is curved, which complicates the whole matter. It IS rather dumb, however it's nowhere near what I said. Did you read what I wrote, and the documents and posts I have linked? It's always simpler to setup a strawman and attack it, instead of tackling the actual arguments presented, isn't it? What I actually said is the mass distribution (not just distal taper, but also the profile, transition of cross section and fuller setup) dictates how a sword handles. I did NOT mention "how well the weapon will cut" at all. It is completely two different things. It's like saying "how well a car handles is the same as how much damage can be done if smashing it full speed into a tree". I have handled plenty of swords that cut extremely well, but handle poorly. Vice versa, an extremely nimble and responsive sword would usually cut reasonably well, but not necessarily like a guillotine or anything. Also, a sword that cuts very well, but is clumsy and slow doesn't do you too well in foot combat. If it requires long and big wind-up to move, you are likely fallen behind your opponent in tempo, your moves will be too predictable, it would be easily avoided or defended, and you cannot respond well enough to riposte, unless you have a vast reach advantage. It doesn't matter how well it cuts and how much damage it can deal against a static mat that's not moving nor fighting back, if your skull is split open, or your hand falls to the ground, that sword wouldn't do you much favor. 3.) Nodachi and odachi are the same thing. If you are going to say most longsword have between a 36 and 43" blade length, then you can't just generalize that most nodachi had only 3 Shaku blades. That wasn't standardized at all, and if anything you see larger nodachi more around 4 Shaku, especially since multiple sources state that nodachi users of the nanbokucho needed to have a retainer so that they could unsheathe their weapon. Now that's just cherrypicking and muddying the waters. So we are supposed to lump all swords with 3 shaku and above into nodachi, because it's expedient to serve one narrative now, while longswords are defined within a certain blade length to strictly suit its techniques prescribed in langschwert fencing? Well then, we should just call all two-handed swords and even bigger zweihanders and montantes longswords now, shouldn't we? Because words have no meaning and definitions are loose now. 4 )it's quite obvious you have no experience in Japanese swordsmanship as most things you mentioned the longsword being capable of, Japanese swords are as well, it just requires you to turn your wrists. My koryu has a version of zwerchau and schielchau, it just requires fancy handwork. I suspect that there are some gross misunderstanding off the techniques and the mechanics and purposes of various false-edge cuts. For simple ascending false edge cuts, it isn't just an equivalent of a true edge ascending cut, otherwise there's just no purpose to it. It is much quicker and biomechanically sound while potentially carrying slightly less power because of the follow-through. A true edge ascending cut especially done from your non-dominant side would not just require "a turn of the wrist" but also the twisting of two wrists. There's a huge difference in the two, and one cannot simply replace the other in a wishy-washy way. The fact that single-edged swords simply cannot perform it at all closes lots of the doors in fencing. Sure, you can have a false edge on single-edged swords, or moroha zukuri to enable it to a certain degree, but those are rare, and it's still not the same as a double-edge sword. And without it, you can do zwerchau and schielchau with single-edge swords? Yeah I've used those two cuts with various katanas, but that's only possible from the non-dominant side. Show me how you can perform zwerchau and schielchau from dominant side please. No amount of fancy handwork can enable that, unless they are no longer zwerchau and schielchau, therefore forfeiting all the benefits of those false-edge cuts. True, you can live without having two edges, but you can't pretend those are not benefits. It's like saying "well an edge-less spear sure cannot cut, but at least it can thrust, so thrusts are all I need to cover all that scenarios that cuts are needed", which isn't true. 5.) Also we're talking no armor so the longswords ability to counter chainmail isn't an advantage here, although it's thrusting ability still stands In battlefield scenario, maille armor and textile protections like gambeson and arming doublet or shitagi in Japanese context are incredibly relevant as you have to bypass those to hurt the wearer, and everyone on the battlefield including those wearing full harnesses have those to protect them. In plain cloth civilian context it is less of a concern indeed. But how many people carry nodachi around every day in civilian context? |
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Post by Kane Shen on Oct 8, 2022 18:47:34 GMT
Lol I'm 5'8". Max blade length I can nukitsuke is 30", and thats with almost improper technique. In my experience, doing sayabiki and nukitsuke while the saya is in the obi against your body makes things very different than when just holding the saya in the hand. Indeed. And that's the benefit of the three-point suspension harness of late medieval longswords, seen in this video below (I time-coded it to showing the scabbard and suspension harness part). You can adjust the angle and height rather freely at all 3 points to suit your needs, convenience to carry vs expedience to draw, mounted vs on foot, etc. With enough adjustment, you can make it almost hung in a way almost like carrying the scabbard in hand in terms of drawing. Drawing with the scabbard on the sash is indeed vastly different from drawing from the hand, but nodachi were not stuck through sash the same way as katana. Many were also suspended from the belt usually on back of the wearer's hip, or just carried on the back, I think that's to avoid drawing the long blade with the scabbard stuck in the sash, so close to your body.   |
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