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Post by adtharp on Oct 5, 2022 21:11:10 GMT
So, I have an original reitschwert from the 30 years war that I am thinking of having a scabbard and suspension made for, but I have some questions.
It seems like the in vogue thing during that time period was the baldric. Did people carry main gauches in the 30 years war? If so, how were they carried with a baldric? Or were they just carried on separate frog on the belt?
Just curious how people carried daggers during that time period, or if they stopped carrying them.
-Drew
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Post by Mark Millman on Oct 6, 2022 10:21:58 GMT
Dear Drew,
By the Thirty Years' War single-sword fencing had largely replaced sword-and-dagger fencing, so as daggers meant specifically for use in sword-and-dagger fencing, mains gauches were out of fashion. There is no doubt that soldiers still carried daggers as tertiary weapons. With very few exceptions--I've seen only two or three in more than twenty years of looking at late-sixteenth and early-seventeenth weapons and pictures--daggers were carried on the belt, behind the hip on the side opposite the sword, directly attached to the belt by a staple or lace on the back of the dagger's scabbard, with the blade angled slightly below the horizontal, and the hilt protruding slightly past the hip. Draw would typically have been with the dominant hand, reaching back for the grip. Separate frogs weren't used.
I hope this proves helpful.
Best,
Mark Millman
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Post by adtharp on Oct 6, 2022 14:08:14 GMT
Thanks Mark - that is super helpful. What kind of daggers were usually carried?
-Drew
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2022 20:34:46 GMT
Feel free to ignore me if you are looking for exact period accuracy, but I've always considered making one of these to hold my sword and dagger
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Post by adtharp on Oct 7, 2022 16:24:14 GMT
Yea, I have seen some baldrics like that, that claim to be historical, but I question it. I think it sounds like the most historical would be a baldric for the sword and a separate belt with the dagger attached.
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Post by Mark Millman on Oct 8, 2022 8:09:01 GMT
Dear Drew,
The baldric @ardhanari shows is, to be fair, entirely historical--for eighteenth-century soldiers issued with both hangers and socket bayonets. It's a perfectly reasonable object, but out of the period in which we're interested.
I should amend what I said earlier. In northern and central Europe, which is your area of interest and what I addressed, sword-and-dagger fencing had gone out of fashion. It persisted in Spain, Portugal, and Spanish-dominated southern Italy. The daggers used for that style of fencing are those enormous sail-guard ones that are often found en suite with cup-hilted rapiers.
I should also clarify that the method of wearing a dagger that I describe above is what was done when daggers were worn with swords. If they were worn alone, they could be worn at the side opposite the dominant hand for a cross-draw, like a sword. As you ask about a dagger to complement your Reitschwert, I only addressed the former situation.
The daggers used as tertiary weapons by soldiers of the Thirty Years' War are a little hard to identify because not many seem to survive; they probably got somewhat smaller and thus less visible as the period progressed; and clothing got looser and more voluminous, which hides many details of equipment. I think it's safe to say that they would have been primarily cross-hilted daggers and side-ring daggers, with blades from 8-15 inches (20.5-38 cm) long. I suspect that the blades got shorter over time because early in the period there would still have been influence from daggers used as accessory weapons in fencing, but as the sword-and-dagger style fell further and further out of fashion (again, in northern and central Europe), daggers assumed an increasingly tertiary role as opposed to being part of a secondary weapons system. Eight to ten inches of blade is plenty in a combat knife if it's not being used specifically for fencing. I'm afraid that my research about this isn't as solid as I'd like it to be, but I feel reasonably confident about the information here. Please don't ask me to be much more specific, though, as I don't think I can support a greater level of detail. I can say that it would be reasonable for your dagger to match your sword in the quality and style of its fittings and construction, but that's a trivial conclusion.
Best,
Mark
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Post by adtharp on Oct 8, 2022 15:06:21 GMT
Mark,
That is an incredibly helpful answer, I don’t think I could ask for it to be more in depth than that!
I agree, I have seen the same side baldric for hanger and bayonet, but never for rapier and dagger, as it would not make sense as you want to be able to draw both at the same time. Your comments on length make a ton of sense.
Thanks again for the well thought out answers!
-Drew
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Post by Mark Millman on Oct 8, 2022 18:49:12 GMT
Dear Drew,
I'm very happy to be able to help.
I figured you probably know about that style of baldric; but I include the information for people who may not, in case any should read this thread later--I thought that your response to @ardhanari, while clear in context, might confuse somebody who isn't as well informed. I suspect in a purely speculative way that a simultaneous draw would be possible with a baldric of that style, but you'd need to do an inverted draw with your non-dominant hand. That might be a bit awkward without some practice, although if your particular baldric and scabbard need to be held in place while drawing your sword at least your non-dominant hand would already be right there. At any rate it's clear they're designed for the user to draw the sword with the right hand and also to draw the bayonet with the right hand, but not at the same time.
Thank you for the kind comments! I hope you'll post the sword and its accessories here when the project is complete.
Best,
Mark
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