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Post by alpharaider on Sept 16, 2022 0:40:03 GMT
Hey Everyone, I recently picked up a new Wakizashi back in June of 2022. This is from the Kawashima Steel forge and under the Katumoto line if I understand correctly. (I'm guessing as I've seen him put the majority of his swords back into thouse boxes) ( He has spoken mutiple times that they are Japanese made blades, as he has them seperated on his display) I've been trying to do as much research as I can find in the past few months. Some info I've gotten has been by scouring the web and some from the seller. I work for a high end tactical store and during the summer I attend a lot of gunshows for the company. One of the vendors I get to see semi often sells swords. He has $200 wall hangers up to 8k+ tamahagane swords. My sword:[ not sure of style name if any ] Type: Wakizashi Sword Smith: Marked Miura Steel: 1095 Honsanmai Differential Heat Treatment Clay Temper Harmmon Horimono: Fudo Myoo Tsuba: Iron ( laser cut ) Tsuka: Japanese Cotton I believe Fittings: Brass Samegawa: White Rayskin Menuki: Brass inserts I believe Saya: hardwood, with clear lacquer and horn Forged: August 8th 2016 Torokusho: copy of sword registration Weight: I believe it was roughly 2.3 lbs [I'll re weight when back in town] Per my understanding and after having mutiple talking with the owner that the way these swords were done is they are forged in Japan but not finished so they fall under a SLO category and may be exported legally. It's then sent to be finished in China to save money. I plan on sourcing authentic pieces to dress it up properly. Since the fixtures are of lower quality. These were listed at $1,850.00 USD as a set. I recieved a vendor discount and ended up spending roughly $600 on the Wak from him I also picked up a full tang 1095 katanna but a lower quality for training and practice. The fitment of the blade and all parts are excellent, the polishing appears well done and it slices like a monster. I'll be shooting a video for it when I return from our gunshow weekend so everyone can see. It seems there is a lot of diffrent information being spread about these swords via various web sites. Thanks everyone,         |
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Post by JH Lee on Sept 16, 2022 3:08:47 GMT
You overpaid. By quite a lot.
As for the fanciful story about being forged in Japan but finished in China, I call BS.
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Post by alpharaider on Sept 16, 2022 3:19:54 GMT
You overpaid. By quite a lot. As for the fanciful story about being forged in Japan but finished in China, I call BS. You believe paying $650 was over priced for a Wakizashi? Or the brand??? I've seen them online anywhere from $575 - $2,000 in the past few months for the nicer stuff on various auction pages and sites. I got to watch video from his last visit to Japan at the forge. I got to see Miura and I've actually got pictures of his father. I picked the Miura because I got to meet minoru's father as he was in the US recently. maybe the seller is just blowing Smoke up my *** who knows? But I see him frequently at Arizona and Vegas Gunshows and he's always been fair with me as far as I feel. Thanks for the reply. |
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Post by soulfromheart on Sept 16, 2022 12:00:06 GMT
Comparing the price tag, there was a review of a 100$ Kawashima Katana (a very good deal if I recall clearly, better than some more expensive swords) with some insight of Paul Southren about the " Made in Japan" thing. I remember the time when Kawashima (Zhejiang Zhengshi Sword Co. Ltd) used to sell directly (still indirectly ?) from Aliexpress, Amazon, eBay and supply lots of different resellers (notably, their Ronin Katana Euro 7 lookalike was very much recommended). |
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Post by jckang on Sept 16, 2022 14:36:21 GMT
I remember the time when Kawashima (Zhejiang Zhengshi Sword Co. Ltd) used to sell directly (still indirectly ?) I didn't realize that Kawashima was made by Zhengshi. They must have several different storefronts/brands. |
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Sept 16, 2022 14:52:48 GMT
I would even dare to say (even without seeing the blades) that none of swords on that display rack have touched Japan but come from Longquan China. It's very easy just to slap on Osaka, Japan 100% handmade on the tag. I see Kawachi Kunihira and Tamaki Michiaki written to some tags. Kawachi Kunihira being one the most famous living smiths in Japan: www.mugenkan.com/Unfortunately I haven't got much info on Tamaki Michiaki but here is an article: www.athome-tobira.jp/story/001-tamaki-michiaki.htmlIt might be bit rude to say but no serious seller of Japanese swords would in my opinion write the stuff that is on the tags but instead write relevant information of the sword. If you are interested in authentic Japanese swords in Vegas, there will be new show in January 2023 (in conjunction with Antique Arms Show): www.vegasswordshow.com/San Fransisco has perhaps the best yearly show in the US, you can see some pics here: www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/41042-picsvideo-of-the-san-francisco-show/I have had a katana by Kawashima in the past, they are pretty average Longquan stuff in general. |
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Post by JH Lee on Sept 16, 2022 14:54:10 GMT
You overpaid. By quite a lot. As for the fanciful story about being forged in Japan but finished in China, I call BS. You believe paying $650 was over priced for a Wakizashi? Or the brand??? I've seen them online anywhere from $575 - $2,000 in the past few months for the nicer stuff on various auction pages and sites. I got to watch video from his last visit to Japan at the forge. I got to see Miura and I've actually got pictures of his father. I picked the Miura because I got to meet minoru's father as he was in the US recently. Smoke up my *** who knows? But I see him frequently at Arizona and Vegas Gunshows and he's always been fair with me as far as I feel. Thanks for the reply. I would and have paid more for good wakizashi. $650 is far too much for the blade in your pictures. That "horimono" is laughable, among other things. Regardless of what photos you may have seen, I still call BS regarding the Japanese connection. I don't have the time right now to read the link from soulfromheart, but it just doesn't add up in my mind. Even if it could somehow be established that the blade blanks begin in Japan to be finished (poorly) in China, I see absolutely ZERO value in that alleged part of the lifecycle of these swords. I don't know what you mean by "smoke up my ***" My intention isn't to argue with you or to criticize you on some personal level. I am just offering my observations about the sword(s) in question. Hope you aren't taking it as an attack on you as a person. Not my intention. |
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 16, 2022 15:48:31 GMT
This question is as old as the Kawashima brand. Years ago, we learned it was marketing hype with no background. This is far from the only company to make these claims.
As far as we know, none of them are true.
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Post by alpharaider on Sept 16, 2022 15:50:28 GMT
You believe paying $650 was over priced for a Wakizashi? Or the brand??? I've seen them online anywhere from $575 - $2,000 in the past few months for the nicer stuff on various auction pages and sites. I got to watch video from his last visit to Japan at the forge. I got to see Miura and I've actually got pictures of his father. I picked the Miura because I got to meet minoru's father as he was in the US recently. Smoke up my *** who knows? But I see him frequently at Arizona and Vegas Gunshows and he's always been fair with me as far as I feel. Thanks for the reply. I would and have paid more for good wakizashi. $650 is far too much for the blade in your pictures. That "horimono" is laughable, among other things. Regardless of what photos you may have seen, I still call BS regarding the Japanese connection. I don't have the time right now to read the link from soulfromheart, but it just doesn't add up in my mind. Even if it could somehow be established that the blade blanks begin in Japan to be finished (poorly) in China, I see absolutely ZERO value in that alleged part of the lifecycle of these swords. I don't know what you mean by "smoke up my ***" My intention isn't to argue with you or to criticize you on some personal level. I am just offering my observations about the sword(s) in question. Hope you aren't taking it as an attack on you as a person. Not my intention. No you are fine, I should probably adjust it. I ment the seller was blowing smoke. |
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Post by alpharaider on Sept 16, 2022 16:16:03 GMT
Thanks for the responses everyone.
I should be able to go to the vegas show in Jan. I'll be at shotshow with our company and attending the Military Arms Collectors Show. Been there a few time before and never saw any swords. But I also wasn't really looking for them.
From Japan or not I'm still pretty happy. It cuts stuff and that all I really wanted for a first blade. Still have lots to learn, I think I've bought 4 diffrent swords in the past 3 months maybe so I can compare them for my review.
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Yagoro
Member
Ikkyu in Kendo and Kenjutsu Practitioner
Posts: 1,584
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Post by Yagoro on Sept 16, 2022 20:07:38 GMT
Thanks for the responses everyone. I should be able to go to the vegas show in Jan. I'll be at shotshow with our company and attending the Military Arms Collectors Show. Been there a few time before and never saw any swords. But I also wasn't really looking for them. From Japan or not I'm still pretty happy. It cuts stuff and that all I really wanted for a first blade. Still have lots to learn, I think I've bought 4 diffrent swords in the past 3 months maybe so I can compare them for my review. I would see if you could get a refund from whoever sold it to you. If you want to get into nihonto, there are plenty of very knowledgeable people on here. Also for a decent wakizashi in that range you could check out hanwei. |
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Post by alpharaider on Sept 17, 2022 2:32:10 GMT
Thanks for the responses everyone. I should be able to go to the vegas show in Jan. I'll be at shotshow with our company and attending the Military Arms Collectors Show. Been there a few time before and never saw any swords. But I also wasn't really looking for them. From Japan or not I'm still pretty happy. It cuts stuff and that all I really wanted for a first blade. Still have lots to learn, I think I've bought 4 diffrent swords in the past 3 months maybe so I can compare them for my review. I would see if you could get a refund from whoever sold it to you. If you want to get into nihonto, there are plenty of very knowledgeable people on here. Also for a decent wakizashi in that range you could check out hanwei. Doubt I can I paid cash and I've used it. I'm not upset about the money I spent honestly. But I deffinatly would like a real one. I'll get a real one in the next few months I suppose. Just depends on when I see something I like. Thanks for the tips! |
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Post by kamagatsu on Sept 20, 2022 15:35:01 GMT
In all sincerity you will continue to waste good and probably hard earned money until you do the legwork ( metaphorically speaking). Research, books, join a club.
My interest in real Japanese swords started 25-30 yrs ago, regrettably I didn’t purchase back then, however Covid lockdown re-kindled my interest and I started researching again, stumbling upon this and other groups. With beginners questions the same answers came back, research!
In recent months I’ve learnt enough to know I don’t know enough, at least not enough to assess a blade for what it is, although I do have a good idea now. I did temporarily scratch my itch by again recommendation and research I learnt enough to find out that the Hanwei Bamboo Mat Katana I’ve bought is a quite sound replica ( and it cuts like a laser) also looks very very good.
I’ve joined the UKs leading group and hope to learn lots from that, but in the meantime I purchased some very good books which I’ll list below, you will learn so much from these books and essentially enough to know what it’s is exactly you’ve bought here, and why it’s not good.
Facts and fundamentals of Japanese swords.
The connoisseurs book of Japanese swords.
Japanese arts library The Japanese sword.
Japanese military and civil dirks,.
Military swords of Japan.
Cutting edge.
The samurai sword, a handbook ( very good easy to understand and cheap) best book to start with.
Some of these are quite expensive a couple I bought 25 years ago but now fetch prices of £300 Uk.
Look around as I picked up a bargain of 5 books recently from a military dealer for less than £200 Uk.
Good luck.
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Yagoro
Member
Ikkyu in Kendo and Kenjutsu Practitioner
Posts: 1,584
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Post by Yagoro on Sept 20, 2022 18:06:57 GMT
In all sincerity you will continue to waste good and probably hard earned money until you do the legwork ( metaphorically speaking). Research, books, join a club. My interest in real Japanese swords started 25-30 yrs ago, regrettably I didn’t purchase back then, however Covid lockdown re-kindled my interest and I started researching again, stumbling upon this and other groups. With beginners questions the same answers came back, research! In recent months I’ve learnt enough to know I don’t know enough, at least not enough to assess a blade for what it is, although I do have a good idea now. I did temporarily scratch my itch by again recommendation and research I learnt enough to find out that the Hanwei Bamboo Mat Katana I’ve bought is a quite sound replica ( and it cuts like a laser) also looks very very good. I’ve joined the UKs leading group and hope to learn lots from that, but in the meantime I purchased some very good books which I’ll list below, you will learn so much from these books and essentially enough to know what it’s is exactly you’ve bought here, and why it’s not good. Facts and fundamentals of Japanese swords. The connoisseurs book of Japanese swords. Japanese arts library The Japanese sword. Japanese military and civil dirks,. Military swords of Japan. Cutting edge. The samurai sword, a handbook ( very good easy to understand and cheap) best book to start with. Some of these are quite expensive a couple I bought 25 years ago but now fetch prices of £300 Uk. Look around as I picked up a bargain of 5 books recently from a military dealer for less than £200 Uk. Good luck. Good stuff. I started out watching matthew jensen's videos, and I recommend you do to, as they are incredibly valuable to beginners and give you a good sense of what to look for on production katana. |
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Post by alpharaider on Sept 20, 2022 18:47:56 GMT
Thanks for the information gentleman. I will look into the items you have suggest. I truly appreciate it 🙏
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Sept 21, 2022 23:31:12 GMT
I’m sorry to say but you were lied to. Doesn’t matter if they’re finished or not. If you run to the post office with a sword or if customs catches it (they’re aggressive with busting drugs and smuggling so they will), it counts as an unregistered weapon and gets cut into bits.
This wasn’t in Japan unless a really careless criminal outfit is making them. 1800$ is the price point where you can get good antique swords. Really not something a dishonest seller deserves for what probably cost them 100$ to make.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Sept 21, 2022 23:34:10 GMT
You overpaid. By quite a lot. As for the fanciful story about being forged in Japan but finished in China, I call BS. You believe paying $650 was over priced for a Wakizashi? Or the brand??? I've seen them online anywhere from $575 - $2,000 in the past few months for the nicer stuff on various auction pages and sites. I got to watch video from his last visit to Japan at the forge. I got to see Miura and I've actually got pictures of his father. I picked the Miura because I got to meet minoru's father as he was in the US recently. maybe the seller is just blowing Smoke up my *** who knows? But I see him frequently at Arizona and Vegas Gunshows and he's always been fair with me as far as I feel. Thanks for the reply. I just sold a cool dude an above average quality sengoku wakizashi for a hair over that, it had a big and heavy solid silver habaki too. I’m not saying to trust me but I’m saying you can get much nicer. Plus the guys who sold to you lied. They don’t deserve a fat profit. Their stuff is shaped poorly, it’s almost Stefan tier. I would contact your credit card and ask for a refund based on fraudulent and misleading claims. It is verifiably not from Japan . If they said they had a torokusho they lied: this is what they look like. I do think you have a good chance of getting the credit card to refund you. Which gives you a big uperhand in pressing for a refund. I’m honestly sorry about this situation. I can get how you being a gun expert might have trusted someone who pretended to be a big man in an adjacent field and talked a good talk. Few sellers outright lie (because you lose long term if you do) so I get trusting them. The good news though is since they sold based on false claims you can easily get your money back. Apart from credit card also consider reporting to the police. It should count as wire fraud. And believe me back when I was an eBay seller having a police report was enough to coerce eBay and paypal to seeing it my way. Attachments:
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Post by alpharaider on Sept 22, 2022 1:23:16 GMT
You believe paying $650 was over priced for a Wakizashi? Or the brand??? I've seen them online anywhere from $575 - $2,000 in the past few months for the nicer stuff on various auction pages and sites. I got to watch video from his last visit to Japan at the forge. I got to see Miura and I've actually got pictures of his father. I picked the Miura because I got to meet minoru's father as he was in the US recently. maybe the seller is just blowing Smoke up my *** who knows? But I see him frequently at Arizona and Vegas Gunshows and he's always been fair with me as far as I feel. Thanks for the reply. I just sold a cool dude an above average quality sengoku wakizashi for a hair over that, it had a big and heavy solid silver habaki too. I’m not saying to trust me but I’m saying you can get much nicer. Plus the guys who sold to you lied. They don’t deserve a fat profit. Their stuff is shaped poorly, it’s almost Stefan tier. I would contact your credit card and ask for a refund based on fraudulent and misleading claims. It is verifiably not from Japan . If they said they had a torokusho they lied: this is what they look like. I do think you have a good chance of getting the credit card to refund you. Which gives you a big uperhand in pressing for a refund. I’m honestly sorry about this situation. I can get how you being a gun expert might have trusted someone who pretended to be a big man in an adjacent field and talked a good talk. Few sellers outright lie (because you lose long term if you do) so I get trusting them. The good news though is since they sold based on false claims you can easily get your money back. Apart from credit card also consider reporting to the police. It should count as wire fraud. And believe me back when I was an eBay seller having a police report was enough to coerce eBay and paypal to seeing it my way. I paid cash so kinda screwed my self on a refund. This vendor has been kicked out of the shows after I talked to the promoters. Live and learn.... but I does chop stuff well so I'm happy in the end. |
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Sept 22, 2022 1:32:51 GMT
You could still demand a refund. Post this in Nihonto Message Board and ask for some people there (many top dealers like Ray) to confirm it’s not Japanese and could never have been in Japan.
Then file a police report with that as supporting evidence. The scammers might be so scared they refund you. I have heard of sellers getting busted for wire fraud before.
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Post by alpharaider on Sept 22, 2022 2:16:59 GMT
Ok, that sounds like a decent plan. This is a image of the "registration" he provided.  |
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