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Post by swordfriend on Sept 12, 2022 18:34:41 GMT
I remember reading somewhere that some swordsmiths dwelled into using iron from overseas in their katanas, especially Swedish iron.
Is true, why was the reason? Scarity of quality iron in Japan? Exotic extravagance? Any particular benefits?
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 12, 2022 18:48:03 GMT
I don't recall hearing anything about Sweden, specifically, but I do know there was a lot of trade with Portugal at one time (1600s?) and smiths were experimenting with "Nanban tetsu" (lit. "southern barbarian steel") in swordmaking. I can't recall whether these swords were generally seen as favorable to more locally-sourced materials, but I believe some were held in high regard. I don't think it came down to scarcity, as much as curiosity, perhaps with a touch of exoticism. Foreign goods were hard to come by way back when, so if you had the opportunity to get your hands on some, you would very likely be quite eager.
These days, the restriction to Japanese-sourced ores and materials is largely a facet of regulating production. Some modern-day Japanese smiths have used various steels to produce excellent swords, but within Japan, the law requires Japanese tamahagane, to preserve the traditional art form and its legacy.
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Post by vidar on Sept 12, 2022 22:13:08 GMT
Small correction: after WW2, Japan had to disarm as part of the surrender conditions. One exception was forging swords in the traditional manner. This is the one and only reason why Shinsakuto are exclusively made from Tamagahane and why Iaito are made from zinc-aluminum.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Sept 12, 2022 23:26:08 GMT
I remember reading somewhere that some swordsmiths dwelled into using iron from overseas in their katanas, especially Swedish iron. Is true, why was the reason? Scarity of quality iron in Japan? Exotic extravagance? Any particular benefits? So many answers: the OG foreign steel was Nanban Tetsu, Portuguese and later Dutch gave them cast ingots. For nanban it didn’t have any obvious advantage apart from the exotic alure: casting can’t remove sulfur or phosphorus contamination so unless a smith was used to working with it and stamped those out and recarburized (time consuming) you would get sulfur taint that embrittles a sword. This is perhaps why mostly schools that catered to the edo elite like Echizen used it while Hizen and other working swords schools despite being right on the main conduit did not use. Basically this excerpt, good show off, not so good working. Industrial steel is a whole other beast and I’ll pull up the passages and when I get home but suffice to say it let them get the equivalent to top notch tamahagane with a fraction the effort. Some smiths despite being classically trained used it from Meiji onwards and their cutters were high ranked. Come WW2 again many used steel mill sources for making what were otherwise gendai - many are hard to tell from tamahagane swords. Pretty much just shrine swords, and some from special military programs like the Starred RJT of that time are confirmed to be tamahagane (the military both gave them the best they could make and demanded they use it). The rest you can’t really tell, but maybe tamahagane has a slightly different hue. A lot of superb blades like Mantetsu were made that way and clearly Japan thought adapting nihonto to industrial steel the most practical way to spam out high quality war blades. They were illegal for a while but not anymore gunto, even ones known to be non traditional in steel can get papers if they’re superb in quality. www.japanese-sword-katana.jp/katana/1910-1040.htm
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Post by ggolden219 on Sept 13, 2022 0:27:02 GMT
Is this why gunto have been selling more quickly? Papers on a non-traditional war blade - crazy times.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Sept 13, 2022 0:42:14 GMT
I don’t see why not. Many were made by classically trained smiths so they’re fine swords provided you didn’t get a cheap oiler showato. They did take less less effort to make, have less potential for paper advancement, and on average command less so don’t overpay.
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Post by ggolden219 on Sept 13, 2022 0:45:40 GMT
I don’t see why not. Many were made by classically trained smiths so they’re fine swords provided you didn’t get a cheap oiler showato. They did take less less effort to make, have less potential for paper advancement, and on average command less so don’t overpay. No worries there. I have one showato for collection purposes and this isn't something that would change my mind about purchasing more. Good to know though. Looks like I have some reading to do this week.
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Post by Mark Millman on Sept 13, 2022 2:59:16 GMT
Dear Drunk Merchant,
I'm curious about what book (article?) it is that you quote (well, scan) above.
Best,
Mark Millman
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Sept 13, 2022 3:19:53 GMT
Dear Drunk Merchant, I'm curious about what book (article?) it is that you quote (well, scan) above. Best, Mark Millman The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords By Nagayama, a national treasure polisher and appraiser. He’s referring to some actual studies a couple of decades ago though. Really useful handbook btw. Basically the Bible on how to appraise a sword to a time period and region.
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Post by Mark Millman on Sept 13, 2022 14:34:46 GMT
Dear Drunk Merchant,
Thank you very much for the information, both about the book and about the studies. If I have the book in hand, I imagine I can look up the references for the studies in it.
Best,
Mark Millman
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Post by MichaelRS on Sept 14, 2022 4:48:34 GMT
...delved...
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Post by ambulocetus on Sept 18, 2022 1:44:28 GMT
Didn't know that Gunto can be papered now. All I can say is, it's about time. Sure a lot of them weren't the best, but some Gunto were simply fabulous blades. I passed up the oppurtunity to buy a mint Mantetsu Koa Isshin To for a grand about 20 years ago, and I'm still kicking myself in the ass. It's probably worth 5 times that now.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Sept 18, 2022 21:17:35 GMT
Eh, I don't know what all the hand wringing is for. Nordic blades were made bettrer by foreign steel. See Ulfbhert etc.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Sept 21, 2022 22:47:35 GMT
In all fairness the modal medieval and early modern European blade was not an Ulfbhert Sword and the Crucible is full of metallurgy on old European blades and the modal was little better than wrought iron that had its edges partly carburized and was riddled with edge slag inclusions. Not a quantum leap. And the cast ignots the Europeans gave had a sulfur problem, as normal melting doesn’t lessen its concentration. That said once they enhanced the Bessemer process with oxygen you could remove said problems and get excellent steel with little effort. Which explains your steel mill gunto. That said, I wouldn’t count on a random echizen nanban tetsu to outperform a working sword from hizen, even if the former thanks to being made of Dutch ignots was a luxury back in the day. Honestly though, no problem since irreplaceable antiques shouldn’t be used to cut by my book.
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