Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Sept 3, 2022 20:50:33 GMT
I'm curious if there any any examples of nihonto with a competitive cutter blade geometry. If so, I'd like to see pics of such examples
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Post by treeslicer on Sept 3, 2022 21:03:50 GMT
I'm curious if there any any examples of nihonto with a competitive cutter blade geometry. If so, I'd like to see pics of such examples They exist, and detailed photographs of some examples sold or for sale can be found on the internet, by searching diligently,
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Post by interruptingcow on Sept 3, 2022 22:08:26 GMT
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Sept 3, 2022 23:14:36 GMT
haha i think I took the hint, and yes, i have seen competition cutters used in japanese dojos, but i have not been able to find any detailed images of one, or ones listed for sale
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Post by treeslicer on Sept 3, 2022 23:33:19 GMT
haha i think I took the hint, and yes, i have seen competition cutters used in japanese dojos, but i have not been able to find any detailed images of one, or ones listed for sale You've probably looked right through them, as all they will be is either custom shinsakuto or reground older swords. Any shinsakuto nhonto katana in hira zukuri, and some shinogi zukuri where the the shinogi has been reduced with a bo-hi or futasuji-hi will be in this class. Usually there will be some statement like "made for martial arts training and cutting".
Here's a Gassan shinto hira-zukuri, of all things:
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Sept 3, 2022 23:44:19 GMT
haha i think I took the hint, and yes, i have seen competition cutters used in japanese dojos, but i have not been able to find any detailed images of one, or ones listed for sale You've probably looked right through them, as all they will be is either custom shinsakuto or reground older swords. Any shinsakuto nhonto katana in hira zukuri, and some shinogi zukuri where the the shinogi has been reduced with a bo-hi or futasuji-hi will be in this class. Usually there will be some statement like "made for martial arts training and cutting". Ah so no shinto swords or the like wouldve have been specifically made like such? Im guessing competitive cutting is a rather recent phenomenon?
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Post by treeslicer on Sept 3, 2022 23:47:10 GMT
You've probably looked right through them, as all they will be is either custom shinsakuto or reground older swords. Any shinsakuto nhonto katana in hira zukuri, and some shinogi zukuri where the the shinogi has been reduced with a bo-hi or futasuji-hi will be in this class. Usually there will be some statement like "made for martial arts training and cutting". Ah so no shinto swords or the like wouldve have been specifically made like such? Im guessing competitive cutting is a rather recent phenomenon? I posted a rare shinto example above. If you dig around at aoi-art, for instance, you'll find more, both old and new. Optimized mat cutters are not common.
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Sept 4, 2022 0:14:13 GMT
Ah so no shinto swords or the like wouldve have been specifically made like such? Im guessing competitive cutting is a rather recent phenomenon? I posted a rare shinto example above. If you dig around at aoi-art, for instance, you'll find more, both old and new. Optimized mat cutters are not common. Thank you treeslicer. That hira zukuri is stunning.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Sept 6, 2022 11:18:31 GMT
Wider blade with certain profiling and thinness is seen as better geometry for cutting competition. I dont know the exact measurements , but ive seen examples of Evolution blades that Jason owns in person designed specifically for competition tameshigiri cutting.
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Post by JH Lee on Sept 6, 2022 20:39:23 GMT
Personally, I strongly dislike such swords, even for competition. It seems to me that there should be a sword at the event that everyone competing has to use, so that those with deeper pockets for such things don't have an advantage over those who are limited to whatever they can afford. It just doesn't seem fair to pretend we're purely judging cutting "skill" when one user has a Kotetsu and another has a dime-a-dozen Longquan. It's like pretending to judge off-road "driving ability" when one is driving an SUV while another is driving a [insert whatever you think is a blah car]. Just my opinion.
Also, there are certain varieties/schools of sword arts (not going to name names here) that try to give the impression of greater skill... when it is clear that they almost always use such hyper-specialized (very thin and very wide) blades to cut grass. Nope. Not a fan.
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Sept 6, 2022 20:45:27 GMT
Personally, I strongly dislike such swords, even for competition. It seems to me that there should be a sword at the event that everyone competing has to use, so that those with deeper pockets for such things don't have an advantage over those who are limited to whatever they can afford. It just doesn't seem fair to pretend we're purely judging cutting "skill" when one user has a Kotetsu and another has a dime-a-dozen Longquan. It's like pretending to judge off-road "driving ability" when one is driving an SUV while another is driving a [insert whatever you think is a blah car]. Just my opinion. Also, there are certain varieties/schools of sword arts (not going to name names here) that try to give the impression of greater skill... when it is clear that they almost always use such hyper-specialized (very thin and very wide) blades to cut grass. Nope. Not a fan. lol you have a point. Hanwei's elite geometry is probably the most extreme id go in saying that its "fair". And thats only because the blade still retains traditional aspects like niku and a geometric kissaki. Im not a big fan of the light mat cutters companies like motohara make that abandon those traditional aspects in search of the best cutter possible. Besides the fact that those types of blades would probably bend with the slightest parry
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Post by JH Lee on Sept 7, 2022 2:50:09 GMT
Exactly. Of course, I'm sure that people who are into specialized light mat cutting will disagree -- "use the best tool for the job" and all that. Personally, I would not want to invest in a shinken that I know would be impractical in its proper context; against a human opponent who is similarly armed. It is still a martial art, after all.
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Post by bradc on Sept 7, 2022 18:13:50 GMT
Personally, I strongly dislike such swords, even for competition. It seems to me that there should be a sword at the event that everyone competing has to use, so that those with deeper pockets for such things don't have an advantage over those who are limited to whatever they can afford. It just doesn't seem fair to pretend we're purely judging cutting "skill" when one user has a Kotetsu and another has a dime-a-dozen Longquan. It's like pretending to judge off-road "driving ability" when one is driving an SUV while another is driving a [insert whatever you think is a blah car]. Just my opinion. Also, there are certain varieties/schools of sword arts (not going to name names here) that try to give the impression of greater skill... when it is clear that they almost always use such hyper-specialized (very thin and very wide) blades to cut grass. Nope. Not a fan. lol you have a point. Hanwei's elite geometry is probably the most extreme id go in saying that its "fair". And thats only because the blade still retains traditional aspects like niku and a geometric kissaki. Im not a big fan of the light mat cutters companies like motohara make that abandon those traditional aspects in search of the best cutter possible. Besides the fact that those types of blades would probably bend with the slightest parry To be fair most companies just offer what their customers want, and there is a market for these specialized mat cutters. Examples in Japan show smiths make them too. I have yet to see a maker that doesn't also offer more traditional geometries. Personally I'm not a fan of them either. But I guess if you are preparing to be attacked by roving bands armed with rolled up tatami, it's best to be ready 🤷♂️ This is one of the most extreme examples of a mat cutter I have seen. The motohaba could compete with my Chinese veggie cleaver http://instagram.com/p/Chagev3Pl13
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Sept 7, 2022 18:16:30 GMT
lol you have a point. Hanwei's elite geometry is probably the most extreme id go in saying that its "fair". And thats only because the blade still retains traditional aspects like niku and a geometric kissaki. Im not a big fan of the light mat cutters companies like motohara make that abandon those traditional aspects in search of the best cutter possible. Besides the fact that those types of blades would probably bend with the slightest parry To be fair most companies just offer what their customers want, and there is a market for these specialized mat cutters. Examples in Japan show smiths make them too. I have yet to see a maker that doesn't also offer more traditional geometries. Personally I'm not a fan of them either. But I guess if you are preparing to be attacked by roving bands armed with rolled up tatami, it's best to be ready 🤷♂️ This is one of the most extreme examples of a mat cutter I have seen. The motohaba could compete with my Chinese veggie cleaver http://instagr.am/p/Chagev3Pl13 Lol you see them in those crazy 7 mat cutting videos. Honestly when its that extreme, I can get owning it just for the novelty. However from personal experience, if all you are doing is cutting up to 3 mats, a hanwei elite is more than enough. My tori is almost too good at cutting, where i need to actually make sure my technique doesnt get sloppy because of it
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Post by bradc on Sept 7, 2022 18:26:31 GMT
Lol you see them in those crazy 7 mat cutting videos. Honestly when its that extreme, I can get owning it just for the novelty. However from personal experience, if all you are doing is cutting up to 3 mats, a hanwei elite is more than enough. My tori is almost too good at cutting, where i need to actually make sure my technique doesnt get sloppy because of it I will admit those videos are impressive, but I suspect they are more the evolution toward a sport like challenge than something applicable to the core art. Unless... What is the diameter of a charging horse or sumo wrestler in mats?
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Sept 7, 2022 18:29:18 GMT
Lol you see them in those crazy 7 mat cutting videos. Honestly when its that extreme, I can get owning it just for the novelty. However from personal experience, if all you are doing is cutting up to 3 mats, a hanwei elite is more than enough. My tori is almost too good at cutting, where i need to actually make sure my technique doesnt get sloppy because of it I will admit those videos are impressive, but I suspect they are more the evolution toward a sport like challenge than something applicable to the core art. Unless... What is the diameter of a charging horse or sumo wrestler in mats? Enough that a nagamaki would be justified to use over a katana
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Post by bradc on Sept 7, 2022 18:39:31 GMT
I will admit those videos are impressive, but I suspect they are more the evolution toward a sport like challenge than something applicable to the core art. Unless... What is the diameter of a charging horse or sumo wrestler in mats? Enough that a nagamaki would be justified to use over a katana Running away or a spear are also acceptable answers Back to the topic by way of horses. Some Chinese Dao were pretty thin. For example the Zhanmadao (anti calvary I beleive). Given the cross talk in early sword traditions (early swords are very much built on Chinese styles). I wonder if there is any inspiration in the current styles from the Dao (or other cultures).
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Post by treeslicer on Sept 8, 2022 4:19:04 GMT
Enough that a nagamaki would be justified to use over a katana Running away or a spear are also acceptable answers Back to the topic by way of horses. Some Chinese Dao were pretty thin. For example the Zhanmadao (anti calvary I beleive). Given the cross talk in early sword traditions (early swords are very much built on Chinese styles). I wonder if there is any inspiration in the current styles from the Dao (or other cultures). Amateurs! Scatter some caltrops, and mop up with a bow and a naginata.
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Post by ambulocetus on Sept 18, 2022 3:03:42 GMT
If you mean, were there antique swords from the old days built like a mat cutter, I think it might be difficult to find one. Tameshigiri means test cutting, but it was a test of the sword, not the swordsman. At my old school, the only time we would do tameshigiri was when a student got a new sword, and only the sword buyer and the Sensei, (and maybe the senior student) were allowed to do the actual cutting. Yes, one should cut with their sword occasionally so that they know how it handles, just like how you should occasionally shoot at a target if you learning how to use a gun. But you need to practice a lot more than target shooting to be a gun fighter, and you need to practice a lot more than mat cutting to be a sword fighter. It seems to me that a lot of cutting competitors forget this fact.
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Post by JH Lee on Sept 18, 2022 18:26:50 GMT
Yes, one should cut with their sword occasionally so that they know how it handles, just like how you should occasionally shoot at a target if you learning how to use a gun. But you need to practice a lot more than target shooting to be a gun fighter, and you need to practice a lot more than mat cutting to be a sword fighter. It seems to me that a lot of cutting competitors forget this fact. Absolutely agreed. A human opponent is not only going to be fighting back at you, they will also be moving in 3-dimensions as well, often on uneven terrain. Most tameshigiri exercises and even kumitachi/tachiuchi sequences are simply too linear and static. Good luck pulling off those sick cutting combinations against a fully resisting opponent who is flanking toward your blindspot. This is not to take anything away from the skill and discipline of accomplished cutters. But sharpshooting/trick shooting exhibitions (a la Annie Oakley et al) is not gunfighting. Tameshigiri, however expertly done, is not swordfighting.
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