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Post by Kane Shen on Aug 28, 2022 5:41:21 GMT
Brother Nathaniel's latest commission generously sent for review--two pairs of awesome pattern-welded butterfly swords by Forgemaster K.Ali. I have to admit I was big fans of these paired short blades used by Wing-Chun practitioners, but since Brother Nathaniel informed me about these incoming review samples, I have delved into the history and origins of these short swords/large knives and found some fascinating facts about them. Let's just say they were originated in a variety of weapons very commonly known to us. In the upcoming review, I will look at some common aspects of butterfly swords that should be essential to the martial arts and techniques behind them, yet often ignored by modern made butterfly swords used at Wing-Chun dojos. A number of tests including some abusive testing are also planned. Stats: The Larger PairBlade length: 13.8"/13.7" Overall length: 18.7"/18.6" Weight: 886g/833g Point of Balance: 2"/2.2" Distal Taper: 4.7mm-4mm/5mm throughout Profile taper: 47.2mm/46.3mm at the base, 58.5mm/57mm above the ricasso, 57.1mm/56mm at the clip points The Smaller PairBlade length: 11.9"/11.8" Overall length: 16.9"/16.8" Weight: 719g/707g Point of Balance: 1.2"/1" Distal Taper: 3.8 throughout/3.9mm throughout Profile taper: 47.2mm/46.1mm at the base, 54.8mm/56.5mm above the ricasso, 51.5mm/50.6mm at the clip points          |
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Post by howler on Aug 28, 2022 19:41:07 GMT
Lovely. Don't know historical weight of Butterfly type, but at over 1 1/2lbs for the small & 2lbs for the larger pair, they must be chopping monsters. Hope they are still somewhat nimble for that beefy power.
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Post by Kane Shen on Aug 28, 2022 22:42:59 GMT
Lovely. Don't know historical weight of Butterfly type, but at over 1 1/2lbs for the small & 2lbs for the larger pair, they must be chopping monsters. Hope they are still somewhat nimble for that beefy power. Indeed, they are fairly quick blades for their sizes and weight, being more defensive weapons due to their historical origins. However, the heft alone makes them beefy choppers if need be. |
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Post by Eric Bergeron on Aug 29, 2022 0:15:14 GMT
I like these a lot!
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Post by Kane Shen on Aug 29, 2022 5:19:31 GMT
Lovely. Don't know historical weight of Butterfly type, but at over 1 1/2lbs for the small & 2lbs for the larger pair, they must be chopping monsters. Hope they are still somewhat nimble for that beefy power. Also, even though Brother Nathaniel didn't intent these to follow historical examples closely, keep in mind that the originals came in at a wide range of weight. Some are surprisingly heavy, by having a T-backed cross section to be extremely rigid for extra thrusting capabilities. Yes, many originals are thrust-oriented swords with cutlass style D-guards. Modern Wing-Chun dojo fat sheet style butterfly knives are actually far from historical, but rather post-modernist takes. |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 29, 2022 13:35:47 GMT
They are good looking pairs, as can be expected from Nathaniel and whoever he selects for the commission. However, IMHO the statistics are all wrong. They are too short at least for me. My preferred blade length is 15¼” but can use 15” as is the one in the photo. The blade should extend the length of the forearms, protecting the elbow when using the reverse grip. For me a nearly 2 lb. butterfly is too heavy to flip from a hammer hold to a reverse grip and back with speed. And for me a lighter sword would be faster and more nimble. I think the upper part of the guard would be better served with more of a forward sweep as it would give better control. See the one in my photo. It looks like Lance’s design is taking some thrusting in consideration for which the grip should be more in line with the blade’s axis? I cannot tell from the photos, do the swords nestle together? The butterfly I used in the photo is my trainer as the real McCoys are packed away. Which reminds me, I should pull them out for inspection and just made a note to do so. That, I thank you for.  |
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Post by loneken on Aug 29, 2022 20:52:08 GMT
They are good looking pairs, as can be expected from Nathaniel and whoever he selects for the commission. However, IMHO the statistics are all wrong. They are too short at least for me. My preferred blade length is 15¼” but can use 15” as is the one in the photo. The blade should extend the length of the forearms, protecting the elbow when using the reverse grip. For me a nearly 2 lb. butterfly is too heavy to flip from a hammer hold to a reverse grip and back with speed. And for me a lighter sword would be faster and more nimble. I think the upper part of the guard would be better served with more of a forward sweep as it would give better control. See the one in my photo. It looks like Lance’s design is taking some thrusting in consideration for which the grip should be more in line with the blade’s axis? I cannot tell from the photos, do the swords nestle together? The butterfly I used in the photo is my trainer as the real McCoys are packed away. Which reminds me, I should pull them out for inspection and just made a note to do so. That, I thank you for. Very interesting thread. You seem to know your way around butterfly swords, are there any specific bladesmiths you'd recommend? |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 29, 2022 21:45:37 GMT
Very interesting thread. You seem to know your way around butterfly swords, are there any specific bladesmiths you'd recommend? Mine are by Cold Steel and I like. I bought mine probably sometime around 2007 and they may have changed a little. The last time I looked there were changes but appeared to be only superficial. I know they have strengthened the scabbard. I bought them online from a vendor other than CS at less than CS’s asking price, which is a common practice. CS does not have these in stock at the moment but one of their distributors might. Traditional Filipino Weapons makes them and their design appears to be good and TFW has a good reputation. However, it looks like no scabbard is offered. If you go that route check for a scabbard. You will need a good scabbard. I’ve seen burtterflys online from other manufacturers, but these sources come and go and most had too short blades. Sorry, that’s the best I can do. |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 29, 2022 22:55:44 GMT
They are purely fantasy and one can call them what one likes. You can just call them dual-knives or something. Not the first time I have done a style over substance design and will not be the last. But I understand everyone has their tastes. I thought they were supposed to be butterfly swords due to the thread's title, “Brother Nathaniel's Latest Commission of Butterfly Swords”. My error. 😉 |
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Post by eastman on Aug 30, 2022 0:07:47 GMT
Most people just use nets 
You must be dealing with the fiendish dire butterflies
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Post by eastman on Aug 30, 2022 1:57:13 GMT
we're going to need a bigger net
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Post by legacyofthesword on Aug 30, 2022 3:48:45 GMT
Most people just use nets You must be dealing with the fiendish dire butterflies
Dire butterflies, aka Blooderflies are mostly extinct, but you still get some reports now and then. In a way, they are beautiful as you see them majestically glide up the forest canopy. It becomes much less pleasant once they arrive in their nests and regurgitate the human plasma from their proboscis to the gaping maws of their voracious, cannibalistic larva that will even eat the mother if given the opportunity. Livestock isn't the only thing they feed on either. You heard about toddler snatched from the town square, haven't you? Reminds me of a certain monster from the manga series Berserk. |
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Post by Kane Shen on Aug 30, 2022 5:01:15 GMT
Keep in mind that the modern wing-chun style of butterfly swords are also mostly fabrications, and what one can call "fantasy swords" today. Their blades bare next to no resemblance to the original 19th century butterfly swords. Without further ado, let's look at the originals, shall we? Anyway, the point is, the modern, or rather post-modernist "butterfly swords" you see at wing-chun dojo (OK, Wu Guan) are much more of "fantasy swords" than Bro Nate's design, aren't they?!   Do you see these? Cut and thrust swords with thick t-back cross section, and heavy weight--often exceeding 2 lbs for blade length well under 20", very rigid for reliable thrusting. Very defensive weapons as pairs to oppose primarily boarding pikes and rifle-mount bayonets used by the British. The D-guard are protruding away from the blade (meaning the blade width cannot be excessively big). I don't know about you, but Bro Nate's design can function much much closer to those originals, than this lot anyway. These don't have the tip for thrusting, which is wrong for self-defense. Their d-guards are flush to the blades--totally missing the point.  |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 30, 2022 12:23:09 GMT
I don’t care to get into an in-depth discussion of the definition of a butterfly sword as they varied considerably depending on the user and school. And there are many varied discussions and misconceptions. So, I settle for Wikipedia’s explanation that I think justifies most if not all. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_sword |
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The Blue Knight
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Post by The Blue Knight on Aug 30, 2022 13:29:54 GMT
There are some folks on the forum who enjoy designing and commissioning weapons that fuse historical design with fantasy. Brother Nate is one of those people. Some of his designs are slightly modified replicas of real historical swords, e.g. his recent take on the Writhen sword. Would we call this a fantasy sword when it's essentially a 1:1 replica with some modifications? Perhaps we can call it a "fantasia on a theme," as we do in musical theory.
It's clear that some of his designs are more in the realm of fantasy than history. As a lover of history and fantasy, I follow his commissions with great interest. Not every design grabs me, but I am always impressed by his ability to fuse his aesthetic with so many historical types. I think these butterfly swords, or whatever we want to call them, are another example of a successful design. Do we call them butterfly swords?
I guess my answer is why not? Are they Wing Chun butterfly swords? Perhaps not. But what else do we call them? Fantasy butterfly swords? Butterfly sword inspired daggers? If the name is bogging anyone down or they feel like these are a misrepresentation, then call them what ever you like.
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Post by soulfromheart on Aug 30, 2022 14:47:24 GMT
I'm always amazed how every elements are blending together into something tasteful : the Blade shape, pattern, engraving, hilt... Not too much of this or that, everything in harmony.  (Blooderfly Swords then ?) |
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