Yagoro
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Ikkyu in Kendo and Kenjutsu Practitioner
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Post by Yagoro on Aug 21, 2022 4:59:57 GMT
I read somewhere that hamon should makeup no more than 1/3rd of the blade surface: However, Ive seen many chinese companies produce blades with choji hamon that cover almost half of the blade surface. Is this information correct? If so are these blades actually weaker than their suguha and gunome/notare counterparts?
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Aug 21, 2022 5:17:34 GMT
I'd say it has more to do with the smith's competence and skills with heat treating than the style or how much of the blade it covers. that being said, if the same skilled smith made two identically constructed blades, one with an o-choji and one with a standard suguha, the o-choji might be a bit more susceptible to failure but I'd guess only a slight difference and only when pushed past a reasonable limit. basically, I would trust that a skilled smith would know the limitations of the hamon and wouldn't create it to be a detriment to the overall function of the sword. on the other hand, someone less skilled may not know enough to safely create a hamon that covers so much area and in that case Id probably avoid a hamon like this. not a metallurgist or bladesmith though so it's just assumptions and guessing really.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Aug 21, 2022 5:50:09 GMT
It’s still debated but Masahide, the founder of the shinshinto revival tried to turn smithing from a secretive tradition to a science. He gathered an exhaustive list of what swords broke easily and what were their traits vs what swords could tank. Ridiculously wide and flamboyant hamon were more prone to damage.
That said, doesn’t mean choji is bad, lots of super traditions like Bizen used it. They just didn’t let it get too wide and they also used tricks (utsuri) to make the steel in the ji springy. The effect on hamon type on strength is probably minimal but some do claim narrower suguha is toughest - imperial Japan prescribed it for its gendai. Are they right? Who knows?
I personally like suguha but I would say don’t sweat it. Get what you like, the effect is probably minimal.
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Post by doctorock78 on Aug 21, 2022 7:29:37 GMT
ooo I hope not, my Huawei has giant wonderful wild choji, and is definitely more than 1/3 of the blade width
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Post by vidar on Aug 21, 2022 14:53:19 GMT
Some books indeed mention that, for practical swords, the hamon should not go beyond about 1/3 of the blade width. Do keep in mind that the authors had authentic Nihonto in mind when writing the books. Many Nihonto have artistic hamon, running almost up to the shinogi. Such swords are supposedly not really suitable for (hard/serious) cutting. For Chinese made swords from high strength steel (T10,…), I don’t think it really matters a lot. I do believe that your Huawei sword with choji hamon is suitable for all intended purposes, including cutting of traditional targets like tatami and bamboo.
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Post by doctorock78 on Aug 21, 2022 21:43:59 GMT
Ah yes, thank you, I think you are right. Folded tamahagane steel and hamon interaction should be different than T10 steel and hamon interaction. Hopefully
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Post by mack7 on Aug 23, 2022 1:15:08 GMT
I like the question, and agree with modern steels and an experienced smith probably more of an academic discussion. The reverse is an interesting question, is a thin hamon less desirable? I would guess this largely depends on the intended use.
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Post by treeslicer on Aug 23, 2022 6:02:42 GMT
I read somewhere that hamon should makeup no more than 1/3rd of the blade surface: However, Ive seen many chinese companies produce blades with choji hamon that cover almost half of the blade surface. Is this information correct? If so are these blades actually weaker than their suguha and gunome/notare counterparts? The conventional Japanese wisdom on the subject (e.g., Nakamura) applies to Edo and later laminated nihonto blades, mostly makuri or kobuse, which were recognized early to have more problems as the hamon got fancier. I've seen no such complaints about koto. Given that Chinese production blades are mostly single billet forgings, more similar to koto than to shinto, shinshinto, or gendaito, I wouldn't worry about it very much up to hamon of half the blade width. My own experience has been that I've seen no evidence of cracks forming in any of my production swords, whether folded, 1060, 1095, or T10, some of which have very spectacular gunome or choji hamon, and as everybody here should already know, I cut some very serious bamboo with them.
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Post by armizare9 on Aug 23, 2022 6:08:23 GMT
Sato sword here have them all the way along their blades I've noticed. I love Tanto's and going to buy the one pictured, nothing but good reviews from buyers..but have they put them through their paces or have simply displayed them who knows, but they look awesome.
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Yagoro
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Ikkyu in Kendo and Kenjutsu Practitioner
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Post by Yagoro on Aug 23, 2022 6:11:33 GMT
Sato sword here have them all the way along their blades I've noticed. I love Tanto's and going to buy the one pictured, nothing but good reviews from buyers..but have they put them through their paces or have simply displayed them who knows, but they look awesome.
Lol of course its all along the blade, if its not the blade will break. im talking about how much of the blade surface it covers, not the length of the edge it covers.
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Yagoro
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Ikkyu in Kendo and Kenjutsu Practitioner
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Post by Yagoro on Aug 23, 2022 6:12:10 GMT
I read somewhere that hamon should makeup no more than 1/3rd of the blade surface: However, Ive seen many chinese companies produce blades with choji hamon that cover almost half of the blade surface. Is this information correct? If so are these blades actually weaker than their suguha and gunome/notare counterparts? The conventional Japanese wisdom on the subject (e.g., Nakamura) applies to Edo and later laminated nihonto blades, mostly makuri or kobuse, which were recognized early to have more problems as the hamon got fancier. I've seen no such complaints about koto. Given that Chinese production blades are mostly single billet forgings, more similar to koto than to shinto, shinshinto, or gendaito, I wouldn't worry about it very much up to hamon of half the blade width. My own experience has been that I've seen no evidence of cracks forming in any of my production swords, whether folded, 1060, 1095, or T10, some of which have very spectacular gunome or choji hamon, and as everybody here should already know, I cut some very serious bamboo with them. Thanks for this info treeslicer
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Post by armizare9 on Aug 23, 2022 6:21:51 GMT
The conventional Japanese wisdom on the subject (e.g., Nakamura) applies to Edo and later laminated nihonto blades, mostly makuri or kobuse, which were recognized early to have more problems as the hamon got fancier. I've seen no such complaints about koto. Given that Chinese production blades are mostly single billet forgings, more similar to koto than to shinto, shinshinto, or gendaito, I wouldn't worry about it very much up to hamon of half the blade width. My own experience has been that I've seen no evidence of cracks forming in any of my production swords, whether folded, 1060, 1095, or T10, some of which have very spectacular gunome or choji hamon, and as everybody here should already know, I cut some very serious bamboo with them. Thanks for this info treeslicer Apologies for misreading your post. But if you bothered to look at the photo i attached you can see it's more than the width of the blade, and like i said despite my earlier reply that company has great reviews. So obviously it doesn't affect the structural integrity.
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Post by shepherd214 on Aug 24, 2022 5:14:19 GMT
If it's heat treated correctly I doubt you'd be able to notice any glaring weakness. They way most of these Chinese blades are heat treated, with enlarged grain due to not thermocycling to refine grain steucture or quenching them too hot due to poor heat control, who knows
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Yagoro
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Ikkyu in Kendo and Kenjutsu Practitioner
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Post by Yagoro on Aug 24, 2022 6:04:16 GMT
Thanks for this info treeslicer Apologies for misreading your post. But if you bothered to look at the photo i attached you can see it's more than the width of the blade, and like i said despite my earlier reply that company has great reviews. So obviously it doesn't affect the structural integrity. I dont want to start an argument over this, but thats not how this works. In terms of structural integrity and hamon types, Im talking about say a 5% difference. And I guarantee for most of those reviews, the user did not push the tanto to failure. Besides the fact the tanto you posted is in a shirasaya, which would mean you would have to actually mount it before safely using it. When i say width of the blade, i mean something similar to this, a choji hamon. What you posted isnt choji. Attachments:
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Post by jckang on Aug 24, 2022 12:19:20 GMT
A metallurgist/sword-maker I talk to quite a bit says that differential hardening reduces the impact resistance and bend tolerance of steel; more straight and less surface area are better for practical cutters.
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Post by joe_meadmaker on Aug 24, 2022 15:31:45 GMT
This is a very interesting topic. I never heard this before. I really like choji hamon and other styles that have a chaotic appearance.
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Post by blackprince on Aug 24, 2022 17:23:25 GMT
So related to this topic, I’ve started seeing katanas like the hamon pattern linked below. Does anyone know if having hard parts in the spine are more likely to see blade breakage? www.swordjp.com/product/japanese-swords
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Aug 24, 2022 22:05:50 GMT
So related to this topic, I’ve started seeing katanas like the hamon pattern linked below. Does anyone know if having hard parts in the spine are more likely to see blade breakage? www.swordjp.com/product/japanese-swordsThat’s hitarsura, hitatsura was popularized by Soshu, one of the kings of old Japanese sword making (masamune is part of that tradition). If you have good control over the hardness it should be fine. As I’ve noted in my review I was very impressed by Zsey so if a production company has control over the hardness it will be theirs. That said even though the model you linked is good this model looks more impressive: Actually it’s very impressive
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Post by jckang on Aug 26, 2022 11:22:46 GMT
As I’ve noted in my review I was very impressed by Zsey so if a production company has control over the hardness it will be theirs. That said even though the model you linked is good this model looks more impressive: Actually it’s very impressive That's some pretty tobiyaki.
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