Learning Chinese swordsmanship?

Mate, I think you will have a heck of a time finding ANY Chinese Martial Art instructor teaching "practical" Chinese sword. That sort of thing went into two directions--either extinct as a result of the Boxer Rebellion (1905) or criminal--ie, Tong/Triad applications--the later, like Japanese Yakuza using swords, more of an execution or ambush application as opposed to a versus another melee weapon situation.

I once encoutered one CMA practitioner who was confident that he could use his sword in combat--because he had done scores of hours of form practice--and once, repeat ONCE his instructor had shown him "in combat you dont do as the form, you do THIS instead"--essentially, ONE demo is expected to counter thousands of ineffective repetitions.

If you really want to train with "intent", that has to be your methodolgy. If you come up with some like-minded fellows, this is far from a bad method: thearma.org/methods.htm

It takes years to get to a point where you can learn the jian (sword) if you go through a CMA school your first weapon that you must master before moving on is the bo staff, then comes the sabre and finally the sword. You only learn the sword if you prove yourself to be highly skilled with the sabre, the sword is the master of all weapons in chinese martial arts and as such is treated with a great deal of reverence, so they won't let you pick one up until 3-5 years into your training. As to learning practical jian, well training in jian is practical but you have to gain enough experience to be able to realise what can be used as practical and what is just showmanship or perfecting of self. Why do you want to learn the jian? It is an extremely hard weapon to learn, let alone master.

Best of luck in your search I recently found a teacher who teaches the Jian as a combat skill (in Western Canada), but this is rare in my experience, although many CMA instructors are very skilled at open hand combat, knives, and wood weapons, many only know Jian forms. This is understandable and not meant as a slight as these skills are not exported from China all that often. Many of the people who know practical jian are professional Chinese military and often only retire at the end of a long career, sometimes they settle outside of China.

However, don't stop looking and asking to watch classes if you find a good teacher you may not have to wait as long as several years if you show maturity and keen interest.

Enjoy your new Adam Hsu Jian, I also bought the 32 inch and enjoy it very much. ;D

The Great River Taoist Center certainly does have its following. They seem to move fairly quickly into sword styles too. See if you can find any of their affiliates around you. I know here on the east coast, there's one in Highland Park, New Jersey and another branch that calls itself the New England branch or something.

I know this is an older topic, but we tend to have slowly building topics here anyway, and there are a couple of things I wanted to add.

Learning to use a jian is hard... but learning to actually use is the way it was intended for (combat) is harder still thanks to the lack of people who actually know such skill. However, there are a couple of places to go, depending on where you live. You said you were northeast... I know that there are a couple of decent schools in New York and Boston that can help out with that... Boston's Yang's Martial Arts Association (YMAA) comes to mind. However, keep in mind what the others in the thread have said... if you are learning traditionally (and these are traditional schools), it will be a while before they let you handle a weapon.

Something else you want to check out is the World Jianshu League. This group has been around for a while, and have been trying to promote and resurrect Chinese sword arts in the form of a combat sport, similar to fencing. They have formed (and are continuing to develop) rules and standards for all competitors to follow, and all the basic strikes and drills that they have set up for practice are all based on traditional Chinese sword arts. You can check them out more here at their website, worldjianshu.org/Default.aspx . You can also check out their YouTube channel, www.youtube.com/user/WJLadmin , and see some of the drills, tactics, and techniques that are used. Granted, how much you will be able to pick up from these videos as a straight beginner is debatable, but at least you will get an idea of how a jian is supposed to be used.

I know that others have mentioned this already, but The Great River Taoist Center really IS a good source for jian information and training. If you can find one of their branches near you, definitely check them out. The books and videos that they have put out are also worth your time.

Actual Jian fighting is a hard thing to get to learn these days, but there are places out there to get this information if you know where to look. Good luck hunting this stuff down.


PS: just something I had to interject... tai chi actually IS a martial art. Well, it used to be anyway. It's true that these days it's considered more of a health exercise than anything else. But there are a few teachers out there that teach people the way it was meant to be taught... as an actual effective martial art. Real Tai Chi training isn't just the slow movement stuff. There are basic drills, two person training sets, weight training, and even fast movements thrown in. This side of the art isn't seen anymore, unfortunately. In fact, this is something that is plaguing a great deal of Chinese martial arts, not just Tai Chi.

I think between swordsage's answer and the one quoted here, you find a good answer. The others are correct also. You will be required to "work your way up. As is true with all martial arts, the forms have to be adapted and improvised. No opponent is going to want to line up into a perfect form for you to perceive the next move. That is why martial arts, especially taijiquan, is continually growing and changing. We have to be willing to grow and change ourselves.

There is a story in our text book that we use, where the instructor tells of a master that told his student that he was doing so well. He told his student to go practice without instruction for a year. After the year, the student came back and told master, "I am not doing well, my forms dont look quite like yours". Master said go back for another year. Student shows up a year later, and states that he is doing poorly, forms look only half like master's. Master sent him away again. the third year the student comes in falls to his knees and cries out, "master I have failed you and myself, my forms look nothing like yours." the master places his hand on the student's shoulder and says, "well done my disciple, your martial arts are now your own."

Some might not follow this belief, but if you think about it, that is why there are so many different styles, and schools. Adapting and changing is what has caused the growth of only a few martial arts styles into so many.

this can aply to both hand to hand, as well as the different styles of swords even in one culture.

Some people practice taijiquan (Tai Chi Ch'uan) for health and as a form of Qi (Chi) development that is fine if that is what a person wants to do. However all the many styles that sprang from the original 13 postures are martial arts. Heck even the CMC style I practice, which is the first of the simplified taiji styles, was created for one of the Sino-Japanese wars. To quote my styles founder "The form and function are mutually connected and nothing more. .... ("Song of Form and Function"Cheng Tzu's Thirteen Treatises on T'ai Chi Ch'uan" Cheng Man Ch'ing, Ben Lo and Martin Inn trans. p218. Blue Snake Books, berkely, CA 1985). This is generally understood to mean that anytime you are practicing the form you are also supposed to be thinking about the application and using the movements like you would be applying them. This applies to the hand form, saber form, and Jian form.

Many schools only do teach the sport or health aspects of Chinese Wushu, but underneath all of those trappings are real martial arts with valid applications it doesn't matter if they are Lao (old) or Xin (new). The form of the martial art must be connected to the martial function. This is what has in many ways been lost in modern times, so as students of these arts it is up to us to find this lost function and reclaim it to further the growth and development of our arts be it Taijiquan, Wing Chun, Jeet Kun Do, or any other branch of Wushu. Chinese swords were not meant to be whippy bendy aluminum POS's but the blades by which many lived and died even up into this century. This is why we need to rediscover the way of the Chinese Sword. This way once stopped Samurai in their tracks in the past and fought them to a standstill, so why should Chinese Sword Arts take a backseat to JSA.

Okay, enough of my ranting. ;D

www.shadowofleaves.com/Chinese_Sword_History.htm



The Art of the Chinese Sword
By Philip Tom

The medieval Chinese dynasties saw great advances in metallurgy. Some, like the ability to produce cast iron, were far ahead of such technology in the Europe. Others, like the mastery of efficient, large-scale steel production, enabled the Tang and Song dynasties to become major military powers in east Asia.

Most collectors of Asian arms are aware that the techniques of forging and tempering developed in China are the basis from which developed the reknowned Japanese swords. These skills arrived in Japan as early as the Sui and Tang dynasty China (AD 589 onward).

The connoisseurship of Japanese sword has thrived over the centuries and has gained an international following in our time. Today Japanese blades are rightly treasured as works of art on their own. Unfortunately, the appreciation of swords produced by the 'parent' smiths of China languished even in its native land. This is despite the fact that very fine blades were made in China, and that hand-to-hand combat with edged weapons often proved crucial in winning battles up through the end of the imperial period.

Sadly, even enthusiastic Chinese practitioners of martial arts tend to be ignorant of the history, manufacture, and aesthetic traditions of the weapons they train with daily. Non-Chinese are in no better state. There is difficulty in reconciling the beautiful specimens on display in venues such as the Forbidden City, Muse de l'Arme in Paris, or the Moscow Kremlin with the shoddy "Boxer Rebellion trophies" or touristic bric-a-brac often seen in antique shops or at gun shows.

A major reason for this situation lies in the scarcity of literature on the subject readily accessible to today's students. This paucity of reference material has not always been the case in China. A survey of technical and artistic treatises reveals a considerable number of works dealing with steel bladed swords, published as early as the 4th cent. AD. (There is an equally impressive body of material dealing with the earlier bronze weapons). However, the publication of such works dwindled sharply after the fall of the Ming Dynasty in 1644.

It is not known for certain why there is a relative scarcity of reference material written on swords during the Qing, the last imperial dynasty, which fell in 1911. A common explanation is that the ruling Manchus, who formed a small percentage of the empire's population, suppressed all writing on military subjects out of fear of insurgency by the Han Chinese majority.

At the beginning of the Qing dynasty, certain works such as Ming-era military encyclopedias were censored and restricted. However, a survey of Qing technical literature does show that a fair number of new titles were written and published throughout the dynasty. After all, the Qing still had need for the information for the benefit of its armed forces (which were predominately composed of Han Chinese troops). Research also has shown that Qing rulers could be quite pragmatic about the bearing of arms by the general populace: for instance, the Kangxi emperor was known to have vetoed a request by an official to disarm the people of Shandong Province.

What is interesting, however, about the military books published during the Qing is that they invarably deal with firearms, artillery, and explosive weapons. (These texts date primarily from the mid-nineteenth century when the empire was racked by rebellion). Even the classic late Ming encyclopedia, Wubeizhi, gives bladed weapons relatively scant attention. Why would this be so, despite the fact that edged weapons were a mainstay in the empire's arsenals? It could be that sword technology was by then considered "old hat", so well known by those whose job it was to master it that it hardly warranted repetition in books devoted to new technology.

It is also interesting to note that although Ming aesthetes had quite a bit to say about swords as an art form. There is however, little evidence to show that this appreciation remained strong during the Qing. A possible explanation could be that the tastes of China's cultural elite tended to narrow as the centuries passed, becoming ever more preoccupied with arcane details of a few, beloved major art forms such as painting, porcelain, and jade. A parallel can be drawn with the decline of the furniture tradition during the later Qing. Finally, we must also take note of the influence of Confucian values, which tended to denigrate things military in favor of literary interests. During the transition to Manchu rule it may also have been a pragmatic choice for scholars not to show too great an interest in arms.

What makes the study of the Chinese sword tradition a real challenge is that those who are studying it in our time must be explorers and pioneers, not passive consumers. There is much to be done in uncovering and translating the old texts that have survived. Even more exciting is the fresh look that we can get at the achievements of the past, by studying blades that have been carefully polished and restored.

Our research to date shows that the swordsmiths of China, over the last 20 centuries, have crafted blades combining the following attributes:

1. A hard and durable edge.
2. A resilient body which absorbs shock without breaking.

In a sword, these goals can be mutually exclusive. Hard steel tends to be brittle; a resilient, springy steel is softer and will not hold an edge as well. Chinese smiths got around this problem by combining hard and soft steels in varying ways. There are three basic methods. One is called baogang, or "wrapped" steel. The hard, high-carbon steel that forms the cutting edge looks, in cross-section, like a "V" which encloses a softer core of mild steel. The core metal is often folded upon itself for more strength, or layered with wrought iron for the same effect. A baogang blade must be made with a fairly thick jacket of hard steel, or else it loses its strength with repeated sharpening and grinding.

A more common form of blade forging is qiangang, or "inserted"steel. The high-carbon edge forms a core with is sandwiched between "cheeks" of mild steel. The cheeks are often made of alternating layers of iron and steel, which produce a pattern on the surface when the blade is polished. A skilled smith can manipulate the layers to produce patterns of great beauty, in addition to providing structural strength to the sword.

The last major type of forging is known in the West as "twistcore". This type is formed of parallel bars of twisted layers of hard and soft steel, all welded into a single unit under heat and hammer. When ground and polished, the surface resembles rows of feathery, star-shaped, or swirling elements.

The other area in which Chinese smiths showed considerable ingenuity was hardening the blade by heating and quenching in liquid. This technique is almost universal, wherever blades are manufactured. China was one of the few places in which techniques were devised to differentially heat-treat the edge, as opposed to the entire blade. This practice increased the strength and cutting ability of the blade. It was developed to the highest level by the Japanese, who originally utilized the skills of immigrant smiths from China and Korea.

The beauty of the Chinese swordsmith's craft is an art form just beginning to be rediscovered in China and elsewhere. We live in a time when new discoveries are made day to day. As we begin to see the beautiful patterns that raise from the marriage of form and function to create a sword blade of superior quality steel, we are only begining our study of the Chinese armor's craft. There many other areas of study waiting to be explored, from decorative motif and their symbolism to the blade aesthetics that are subtly married to function.

Copyright Seven Stars Trading Co. 1998

this is something that i have found that will help a little to answer the last two posts. there are some books and dvds out by Dr. Yang Jwin-Ming that teaches on jian. Maybe that will help.

as far as surviving manuscript for two-handed jian, boy would i love to get my hands on a translation of that manuscript. i havent found anything for the forms on it, unless they are similar to a regular jian. you are correct about certain similarities in european arts, tho most wont admit it. fencing has your 8 basic maneuvers and the box of shoulders to hips. jian combat techniques have some of this also. 8-stroke style is your basics in jian combat techniques. that is why i use the fencing mixed with the jian styles. the very first swordplay i learned was from a friend taking fencing as a sport in college. he taught me to have someone to practice with for homework. Granted we only used foils. but it was great fun, and alot safer than what i use now.

that is a darned good vid. actually, tho, the student shows that the application arent too far off from the form. what makes it difficult to see the aps if we only train form is the lack of sparring partner. i have only been taught through sparring practice, so my forms style doesnt look as good as yours, my friend. i saw the vid of your practice, and it is not too bad at aall. of course you wont be able to see it the same way because you see it thru your own eyes and will be more critical wanting to get better. I believe with a partner to spar with you would be very good at your level. if i make it out there on vacation, i will see if i can get a couple of blunts and we will try it out.

always remember that if you want to confound complexity, sometime simplicity is the way.

edit;

oh, sorry, misread the poster. thought that was LPBoyle. that is why I said when i get there.