Sabre Techniques With A Longsword

Why would using a straight blade be a problem if you are used to using a curve?

Thank you, I appreciate you're explanation. I wasn't aware that there was such a disparity on how the different blade shapes feel to use.

Thats interesting. I'll have to look up tulwar and gatka techniques then. I've never heard of gatka before.

Two totally different sword designs and mechanics of use. While there is some crossover between a longsword and a saber due to human physiology, their techniques don't correlate.

You can have *some* success in wielding a longsword as if it was a saber (and vice-versa), but it will only be like 30% effective.

I know Markus313 has done a lot of work with both styles of blades, perhaps he will chime in with his perspectives.

A lot of later military sabers used for cutting and thrusting had rather straight blades, so that’s one aspect, but not most decisive. IMO, Rufus is pretty much spot on. The mass distribution of the weapon is most important. With the longsword in one hand (assuming you grip it close to the guard), you have much of the weight behind your hand, and that will weaken the impact power you get at the cutting part of the blade (also it shifts the center of percussion towards the hands, giving less effective reach). The blade will rotate slower, and in general, you will be much slower in all directions with the longsword, due to the long handle and the mass being differently distributed along the blade. Less powerful. And the blade will be harder to stop for a parry or to change directions. Then there is the overall weight of the longsword, which is much higher compared to most sabers. Of course there are many ways of using a “saber”. And yes, one can make anything work, somehow. Would it be effective – perhaps. Is it efficient – no. Not when being used in any saber method I know of. Using it "from the wrist" would definitely not work well.

Yes, I am also very interested in learning about HOW the sword is used in actual situations. I enjoy studying the engineering of the blade itself and the culture that created it. It all comes down to the usage at the end of the day. How the sword reacts in a dynamic environment and the techniques used to maximize it's offensive and defensive capabilities, etc.

My advice to you is to spend about 10% of your time reading about technique and 90% trying it out in the real world through sparring. Only then will you truly be able to understand the pros and cons of certain sword designs. I know that I have been very surprised when experimenting with swords from widely different cultures- many of the "truths" that I believed turned out to be wrong and I gained much respect for what I used to think of as inferior weapons.

Yes, have fun, experiment, question everything. Perhaps someday we can meet up for a sparring match and learn from each other. I go to Europe maybe twice a year, and I'm all over the USA (randomly, it would seem). I'll be in Denver at the end of August, and then Oakland CA the first week of September. After that, I don't know- probably Winnipeg before the end of the year.

Thank you all for your answers to my question, you've given me some wonderful insights and a better understanding of this topic.

I initially asked this question because for a while now I've been doing a lot of sabre drills. A couple of weeks ago I purchased my first longsword and was curious as to how my previous knowledge would apply to a new weapon.

I've been training with the longsword as though it were a sabre and so far it doesn't seem terribly difficult. I think a lot of it would depend on the specific sword though. Mine is pretty light with a low point of balance. Wrist cuts seem fairly easy, espicially when I wear gloves. I don't know why the gloves make a difference, but they do. Keep in mind, none of this has been pressure tested with sparring so I don't have an opinion as to it's combat effectiveness. But as far as ease of use is concerned, it's definitely doable and faster than I expected.

Well, yes and no. Kinda sorta.



     Let me explain in far too many words: My personal journey started fairly typically with Kendo classes. I grew up admiring the katana and believed all they hype about it being the ultimate sword in all of history throughout the universe. When I was old enough I started learning at the local Kendo school and fell in love with it completely. I was getting reasonably competitive in the early 90's and was on the cusp of making a name for myself.... then it happened.


     I was invited to a local SCA meeting where they were doing some sparring with rattan and foamies (this was in the days where everything was home-made). So I thought that it would be fun to have a match with a couple of guys because I didn't think much of their fighting styles (after all, I knew katana so that made me automatically the best ever- cutting gun barrels in half and such ). So, bottom line was that I was completely humiliated by a longsword. I had nothing for it. After graciously licking my wounded pride, I sat down and did a very long and detailed think-through of what just happened. That was when I realized that Kendo was a sport, and sport is completely different from combat fighting. I kept up with the Kendo for a year or two more, then started studying kenjistu - or the combat art of the katana.


     So fast forward a few years. I laid down my swords about 2003 or so due to family and career and such, having never really experienced contact sparring with my kenjitsu techniques. Now fast forward to a couple of years ago and my first business trip to Germany. Markus313 was so very kind enough to open his gym for me and we did some double-blind sparring: I never sparred against a saber and he never sparred against an actual kenjitsu. It was very eye-opening for the both of us (there's a video of that meeting on this board here: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/60067/video-hema-kenjutsu-rufusscorpius-marcus313). I was impressed with how effective the saber really was. We cross trained each other and both gained a mutual respect for the other's weapons.


     Ok then, almost done! Over the last 3 years I've learned that each weapon type be it Japanese, Chinese, European, African, whatever, is deadly effective when used with proper technique. When I first started cross training I did what is natural to do and that was to apply my katana knowledge to whatever sword I had in hand. I found that while I thought I was doing well, the truth was that I was just being a hack. When I sparred against a knowledgeable opponent, I got trounced. The key difference wasn’t my skill, or physical fitness, or anything like that, it was knowledge vs. ignorance. This is the single most important thing- yes, you can apply some of your existing knowledge to any sharp sword like object and think you are doing fine, but you will come to a rude awakening if you come up against someone who has the knowledge of technique.


    I have some homework for you. Go to YouTube and watch some videos of the Odachi/Nodachi from Skallagrim or Metatron or whatever. Watch them use the sword in .25 speed and pay very close attention to their techniques and results. Now pull up the video I have on this board about the Dandao and my trip to Paris. Watch the kata demonstration from Jean Baptiste in .25 speed and compare it to what the YouTubers have done. THIS is the difference. THIS is what makes a sword fast and hit hard, or not. No disrespect to Skallagrim or Metatron, but they don’t have the knowledge to use the odachi/nodachi properly, whereas J-B does (because he literally wrote the book on the topic).

     
     My advice to you is to study each kind of sword IN CONTEXT of its own techniques and learn how that blade operates. When you understand the motion of the blade, then you can apply it to your own techniques and create your own style. To do otherwise is to deny yourself critical knowledge. Study the techniques, not the hype and mythologies- go out and spar with the blade and try to understand how the technique translates to speed, agility, and power.


     Always keep your mind open to learning from everybody and every culture. The primary lesson I learned in my own martial art journey is that nobody has the ultimate weapon or fighting style. The katana is an excellent sword, but so is the arming sword, saber, rapier, longsword, Grosse Messer, etc. etc. etc.  It's a cool thing to learn and cross train because you can surprise your opponent by using a cross-over technique from another culture that they didn't expect.  Perhaps a little "dirty" or "tricksy" but if it works.... ask Markus313 about the chicken strike  



Good luck!