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Post by AIKIGIG$ on Jun 30, 2022 16:13:24 GMT
Hi guys I'm wondering what steel for katana is more reliable? I know a couple choices Monosteel Folded steel Deferential hardening steel L6 bainite steel What other kind you know ? And which one is the best in your opinion for katana ?
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Jun 30, 2022 16:22:04 GMT
Hi guys I'm wondering what steel for katana is more reliable? I know a couple choices Monosteel Folded steel Deferential hardening steel L6 bainite steel What other kind you know ? And which one is the best in your opinion for katana ? Monosteel is the most reliable. Folded or l6 is probably the least reliable for production swords because of the amount of opportunities for failure in the process of producing them. Differential hardened but not folded is usually what i go with for production swords because you atleast still get a traditional look with modern durability
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Post by AIKIGIG$ on Jun 30, 2022 16:30:08 GMT
Hi guys I'm wondering what steel for katana is more reliable? I know a couple choices Monosteel Folded steel Deferential hardening steel L6 bainite steel What other kind you know ? And which one is the best in your opinion for katana ? Monosteel is the most reliable. Folded or l6 is probably the least reliable for production swords because of the amount of opportunities for failure in the process of producing them. Differential hardened but not folded is usually what i go with for production swords because you atleast still get a traditional look with modern durability Thank you for the answer. I have motohara SGT Hard Target cutter It's monosteel but I don't know if it's Deferential hardening. What are you thinking about SGT steel ?
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Jun 30, 2022 16:34:25 GMT
Monosteel is the most reliable. Folded or l6 is probably the least reliable for production swords because of the amount of opportunities for failure in the process of producing them. Differential hardened but not folded is usually what i go with for production swords because you atleast still get a traditional look with modern durability Thank you for the answer. I have motohara SGT Hard Target cutter It's monosteel but I don't know if it's Deferential hardening. What are you thinking about SGT steel ? If it has a hamon its differentially hardened. I dont own any motoharas yet myself, but they are great swords
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jun 30, 2022 16:36:10 GMT
None are "best". Each has a list of pros and cons. It's up to you to decide what factors of each will appeal to your specific needs.
None are any good if the heat treatment failed. I can't really give you a better answer except to say that for 99.9% of hobbyist, any proper steel will do and you will never notice any functional difference in them. It really comes down to what you desire for aesthetic appeal and price point. I have DH and mono-steels and they are all very good. The DH has nice hamons, the MS are bland but anvil tough. 6 one way, half a dozen the other.
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Jun 30, 2022 16:37:37 GMT
None are "best". Each has a list of pros and cons. It's up to you to decide what factors of each will appeal to your specific needs. None are any good if the heat treatment failed. I can't really give you a better answer except to say that for 99.9% of hobbyist, any proper steel will do and you will never notice any functional difference in them. It really comes down to what you desire for aesthetic appeal and price point. I have DH and mono-steels and they are all very good. The DH has nice hamons, the MS are bland but anvil tough. 6 one way, half a dozen the other. This is why i mentioned how reliable they are, not if one is better than the other. monosteel production swords tend to be reliably decent at the very least since they are the easiest to make
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jun 30, 2022 16:42:52 GMT
Ok, yes I see what you are talking about. In that case, then monosteel hands down the most reliable since it requires less skill and processing to make a decent blade. You can actually start with a blank of industrial steel, cut to shape on a CNC machine, then do a heat treat in a simple kiln and get a 99% reliable outcome.
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Post by AIKIGIG$ on Jun 30, 2022 16:51:37 GMT
So my SGT monosteel katana is reliable for fight for example? For me it's not that important the blade to be beautiful with choji hamon and ect. If I want beautiful sword I'll buy nihonto. I'm iaido practicioner and want to practice with real sword that I know the samurai will use in the war. If monosteel and other kind katana hit each other which one will breake and which one will survive ?
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 30, 2022 17:04:15 GMT
Your categories aren't right. There is monosteel and folded steel. Both can be differentialy hardened or through hardened or heat treated to have a hard DH edge and a tough TH bainite spine. "Differentialy hardening steel" doesn't really exist, except you call very high carbon steel so because it makes more sense to DH a high carbon steel. Rufus is right that monosteel is less prone to production failures. If you get the perfect forging and heat treatment probably a bainite monosteel blade would be most durable.
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Post by AIKIGIG$ on Jun 30, 2022 17:08:36 GMT
Your categories aren't right. There is monosteel and folded steel. Both can be differentialy hardened or through hardened or heat treated to have a hard DH edge and a tough TH bainite spine. "Differentialy hardening steel" doesn't really exist, except you call very high carbon steel so because it makes more sense to DH a high carbon steel. Rufus is right that monosteel is less prone to production failures. If you get the perfect forging and heat treatment probably a bainite monosteel blade would be most durable. Is SGT steel is bainite ? Or only L6 is bainite ? Thank you for the info, I don't know a lot about steels, I'm practitioner but want to learn, so excuse me for my incorrect questions. I would be thankful if you guys teach me
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Post by toddstratton1 on Jun 30, 2022 17:18:24 GMT
Your categories aren't right. There is monosteel and folded steel. Both can be differentialy hardened or through hardened or heat treated to have a hard DH edge and a tough TH bainite spine. "Differentialy hardening steel" doesn't really exist, except you call very high carbon steel so because it makes more sense to DH a high carbon steel. Rufus is right that monosteel is less prone to production failures. If you get the perfect forging and heat treatment probably a bainite monosteel blade would be most durable. Is SGT steel is bainite ? Or only L6 is bainite ? Thank you for the info, I don't know a lot about steels, I'm practitioner but want to learn, so excuse me for my incorrect questions. I would be thankful if you guys teach me Bainite is L6 but only a few people do that right and not all L6 is bainite, like the L6 from Motohara is not Bainite. But you have a super high end sword if you have a Motohara anyways and it will do all you need. The only thing above that is a custom Howard Clark blade. Aside from any actual Nihonto, not for their performance per say but beauty. Maybe some other super high regarded custom sword makers too. Motohara and Howard Clark are known for making the best performance based blades out there.
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Post by jyamada on Jun 30, 2022 17:39:06 GMT
Monosteel is the most reliable. Folded or l6 is probably the least reliable for production swords because of the amount of opportunities for failure in the process of producing them. Differential hardened but not folded is usually what i go with for production swords because you atleast still get a traditional look with modern durability Thank you for the answer. I have motohara SGT Hard Target cutter It's monosteel but I don't know if it's Deferential hardening. What are you thinking about SGT steel ? Motohara SGT is DH. Don't worry about steel. Who makes it matters, and if you have Motohara, you have the best in that price range and more. Howard Clark sent one of his personal swords to EB Motohara for work.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 30, 2022 17:55:56 GMT
Your categories aren't right. There is monosteel and folded steel. Both can be differentialy hardened or through hardened or heat treated to have a hard DH edge and a tough TH bainite spine. "Differentialy hardening steel" doesn't really exist, except you call very high carbon steel so because it makes more sense to DH a high carbon steel. Rufus is right that monosteel is less prone to production failures. If you get the perfect forging and heat treatment probably a bainite monosteel blade would be most durable. Is SGT steel is bainite ? Or only L6 is bainite ? Thank you for the info, I don't know a lot about steels, I'm practitioner but want to learn, so excuse me for my incorrect questions. I would be thankful if you guys teach me L6 is a steel type, containing some nickel, a good tough steel. Bainite is a special tough crystal structure in the steel blade (in the spine, not the edge) as a result of a certain heat treatment. L6 seems to make it easier to do this heat treatment successfully, all known bainite makers use L6 afaik, but it's not a must. If a forge says it uses L6 steel it's typically not bainite, only if the say "L6 Bainite" explicitly.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Jun 30, 2022 18:00:10 GMT
Is SGT steel is bainite ? Or only L6 is bainite ? Thank you for the info, I don't know a lot about steels, I'm practitioner but want to learn, so excuse me for my incorrect questions. I would be thankful if you guys teach me L6 is a steel type, containing some nickel, a good tough steel. Bainite is a special tough crystal structure in the steel blade (in the spine, not the edge) as a result of a certain heat treatment. L6 seems to make it easier to do this heat treatment successfully, all known bainite makers use L6 afaik, but it's not a must. If a forge says it uses L6 steel it's typically not bainite, only if the say "L6 Bainite" explicitly. Also worth mentioning that if the forge does not do it correctly it can make the sword more risky and damage and brittleness. Theres a right way to do it that requires a good smith.
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Post by AIKIGIG$ on Jun 30, 2022 18:33:05 GMT
Thank you very much for all your answers!
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Jul 1, 2022 0:00:48 GMT
Is SGT steel is bainite ? Or only L6 is bainite ? Thank you for the info, I don't know a lot about steels, I'm practitioner but want to learn, so excuse me for my incorrect questions. I would be thankful if you guys teach me Bainite is L6 but only a few people do that right and not all L6 is bainite, like the L6 from Motohara is not Bainite. But you have a super high end sword if you have a Motohara anyways and it will do all you need. The only thing above that is a custom Howard Clark blade. Aside from any actual Nihonto, not for their performance per say but beauty. Maybe some other super high regarded custom sword makers too. Motohara and Howard Clark are known for making the best performance based blades out there. Personally I’ve only seen hype. Some say so and so custom sword is a legend. But then I look up torture testing videos and find nothing. So do we actually know or are we just guessing that because it’s expensive it’s a legend? The best illustration is sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/67903/companies-base-designs-historical-examplesI’d heard that Stefan Roth was a god of swords in Europe and his work was legendary, and for sure he charges 10000EU for the pleasure of owning uh, this The moment one of his swords hit a (hard object that production and old swords can handle with at worst a “hakobore” nick) though, it literally exploded into shrapnel. Roth did try to save face by insisting all katanas suck and are shrapnel death traps so his is still the best (although even humiliatingly bad career killing results of old time never lead to shrapnel death traps). My point is this is why I like evidence. If it’s good they can show like how bugei did with torture tests. Otherwise it’s just guessing and people being too scared to dent custom work. And at least in the case of one German “god” it seems a hanbon could run circles around his work in looks and performance. My hat does go off to smiths like Bolf who do torture test. Amazingly enough he’s one of the cheaper out there.
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Jul 1, 2022 0:11:06 GMT
Bainite is L6 but only a few people do that right and not all L6 is bainite, like the L6 from Motohara is not Bainite. But you have a super high end sword if you have a Motohara anyways and it will do all you need. The only thing above that is a custom Howard Clark blade. Aside from any actual Nihonto, not for their performance per say but beauty. Maybe some other super high regarded custom sword makers too. Motohara and Howard Clark are known for making the best performance based blades out there. Personally I’ve only seen hype. Some say so and so custom sword is a legend. But then I look up torture testing videos and find nothing. So do we actually know or are we just guessing that because it’s expensive it’s a legend? The best illustration is sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/67903/companies-base-designs-historical-examplesI’d heard that Stefan was a god of swords in Europe and his work was legendary, and for sure he charges 10000EU for the pleasure of owning uh, this The moment one of his swords hit a (hard object that production and old swords can handle with at worst a “hakobore” nick) though, it literally exploded into shrapnel. Roth did try to save face by insisting all katanas suck and are shrapnel death traps so his is still the best (although even humiliatingly bad career killing results of old time never lead to shrapnel death traps). My point is this is why I like evidence. If it’s good they can show like how bugei did with torture tests. Otherwise it’s just guessing and people being too scared to dent custom work. And at least in the case of one German “god” it seems a hanbon could run circles around his work in looks and performance. My hat does go off to smiths like Bolf who do torture test. Amazingly enough he’s one of the cheaper out there. Pretty sure Howard Clark actually did torture test his l6 bainite swords to prove how much of a beating they can take
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Jul 1, 2022 0:13:01 GMT
I did see a video but apart from being very bendable there wasn’t much out of the ordinary. Still took huge hagire when hitting something hard for instance. Honestly I don’t know if the bending factor is really worth the extra money. They’re meant to but not do circus tricks.
again don’t see that as saying bad, see it as me being skeptical about legends. When you look closely you’ll see things aren’t that different. A trick or two aside.
If you buy a cheaper sword with strong fundamentals you can likely get the same performance. Sometimes better as the slickest production benefit from vertical integration and economies of scale. Note Roth lacks access to cheap elite Chinese polishers so he had somone wing it with acid. Meanwhile a first rate production outfit can give it to a polisher at practically the level of traditional who does it in volume and gives their sword better geometry. And it still costs less because those economic factors.
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Jul 1, 2022 0:18:28 GMT
I did see a video but apart from being very bendable there wasn’t much out of the ordinary. Still took huge hagire when hitting something hard for instance. Honestly I don’t know if the bending factor is really worth the extra money. They’re meant to but not do circus tricks. again don’t see that as saying bad, see it as me being skeptical about legends. When you look closely you’ll see things aren’t that different. A trick or two aside. If you buy a cheaper sword with strong fundamentals you can likely get the same performance. Sometimes better as the slickest production benefit from vertical integration and economies of scale. Note Roth lacks access to cheap elite Chinese polishers so he had somone wing it with acid. Yeah, I understand what you mean. I wouldn't really compare roth to someone like Clark though. I think it's fair for Clark to charge close to 10k for his swords. Haven't heard anyone complain about them, so he must be doing something right
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Jul 1, 2022 0:22:05 GMT
I agree, although the problem with something that expensive is that few are willing to push a sword to its breaking point so it’s hard to know.
And lol I really should be nicer to Roth but at 12000$ it’s just too tempting to use as an example of something overhyped. Especially after he claimed he was still the best because all katana are shrapnel death traps that kill you with shrapnel whenever edge on edge happens lol. Imagine how fun Japan would have been if they worked like that instead of getting hakobore?
Imagine: Shingen and Kenshin both die from their own sword shrapnel when they cross blades in timeline shrapnel
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