Yagoro
Member
Ikkyu in Kendo and Kenjutsu Practitioner
Posts: 1,577
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Post by Yagoro on Jul 1, 2022 0:25:00 GMT
I agree, although the problem with something that expensive is that few are willing to push a sword to its breaking point so it’s hard to know. Same could be said for modern shinsakuto, although I do know of a Japanese Smith that uploads YouTube videos of him torture testing his swords
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Jul 1, 2022 0:30:40 GMT
I wholeheartedly agree! I don’t think shinsakuto preform any better than older swords, in fact one of the smiths who was bragging had disappointing results that would have failed the WW2 RJT program. Since they’re not doing surprise torture tests like that article I linked and publicly humiliating the loser when his mass produced bundle swords fail to preform there isn’t as much pressure to be functional. Yeah I do see some hit steel helms. But honestly. At 12000$ for a shinsakuto that at best meets benchmarks and honestly don’t look as good as old swords. Idk, I don’t see myself buying one even if it is the right and socially responsible thing to do.
If it’s for disposable use I’ll use top production. I doesn’t need to be a treasure, just well made.
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Post by MichaelRS on Jul 1, 2022 5:37:54 GMT
And some of y'all wonder why I stick to HanBon Forge 😉
😄
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Yagoro
Member
Ikkyu in Kendo and Kenjutsu Practitioner
Posts: 1,577
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Post by Yagoro on Jul 1, 2022 6:01:44 GMT
I wholeheartedly agree! I don’t think shinsakuto preform any better than older swords, in fact one of the smiths who was bragging had disappointing results that would have failed the WW2 RJT program. Since they’re not doing surprise torture tests like that article I linked and publicly humiliating the loser when his mass produced bundle swords fail to preform there isn’t as much pressure to be functional. Yeah I do see some hit steel helms. But honestly. At 12000$ for a shinsakuto that at best meets benchmarks and honestly don’t look as good as old swords. Idk, I don’t see myself buying one even if it is the right and socially responsible thing to do. If it’s for disposable use I’ll use top production. I doesn’t need to be a treasure, just well made. This is why it annoys me that some elitists only consider shinsakuto to be Japanese swords. It's honestly rather insulting to American and European smith's(although some may deserve to be insulted) and completely devalues their work by saying that the swords they make will never be actual Japanese swords. Like that makes any sense at all. It's like saying a messer isn't a real messer unless it is made in Germany. Ofc I'm not talking about them being nihonto, because by definition they aren't, but I would still consider them Japanese swords
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Post by toddstratton1 on Jul 1, 2022 6:56:30 GMT
I agree, although the problem with something that expensive is that few are willing to push a sword to its breaking point so it’s hard to know. And lol I really should be nicer to Roth but at 12000$ it’s just too tempting to use as an example of something overhyped. Especially after he claimed he was still the best because all katana are shrapnel death traps that kill you with shrapnel whenever edge on edge happens lol. Imagine how fun Japan would have been if they worked like that instead of getting hakobore? Imagine: Shingen and Kenshin both die from their own sword shrapnel when they cross blades in timeline shrapnel That seems in such poor taste to say anyways, not a great way of saving face and people who know more will see that he is lying. As you memtioned if that was an issue than Japans past would be filled with terrible examples.
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Post by AIKIGIG$ on Jul 1, 2022 8:51:01 GMT
Bainite is L6 but only a few people do that right and not all L6 is bainite, like the L6 from Motohara is not Bainite. But you have a super high end sword if you have a Motohara anyways and it will do all you need. The only thing above that is a custom Howard Clark blade. Aside from any actual Nihonto, not for their performance per say but beauty. Maybe some other super high regarded custom sword makers too. Motohara and Howard Clark are known for making the best performance based blades out there. Personally I’ve only seen hype. Some say so and so custom sword is a legend. But then I look up torture testing videos and find nothing. So do we actually know or are we just guessing that because it’s expensive it’s a legend? The best illustration is sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/67903/companies-base-designs-historical-examplesI’d heard that Stefan was a god of swords in Europe and his work was legendary, and for sure he charges 10000EU for the pleasure of owning uh, this The moment one of his swords hit a (hard object that production and old swords can handle with at worst a “hakobore” nick) though, it literally exploded into shrapnel. Roth did try to save face by insisting all katanas suck and are shrapnel death traps so his is still the best (although even humiliatingly bad career killing results of old time never lead to shrapnel death traps). My point is this is why I like evidence. If it’s good they can show like how bugei did with torture tests. Otherwise it’s just guessing and people being too scared to dent custom work. And at least in the case of one German “god” it seems a hanbon could run circles around his work in looks and performance. My hat does go off to smiths like Bolf who do torture test. Amazingly enough he’s one of the cheaper out there. Here is some kind of test for Motohara. And the sword show it self pretty well
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Jul 1, 2022 14:20:41 GMT
Yeah, you can see Stefan Roth’s Lolallkatanassuck video on YouTube… His evidence: literally a sword he forged
I guess he couldn’t bring in Motohara or even hanbon because they wouldn’t break from his tests. And he still expects 10000EU for that lol.
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Post by AIKIGIG$ on Jul 1, 2022 16:08:11 GMT
Yeah, you can see Stefan’s Lolallkatanassuck video on YouTube… His evidence: literally a sword he forged I guess he couldn’t bring in Motohara or even hanbon because they wouldn’t break from his tests. And he still expects 10000EU for that lol. Can you put here link to the stefan's video
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Jul 1, 2022 16:21:56 GMT
Lol here anything harder than a tomato or tatami literally could kill you if you hold a Stefan Roth a brave attempt to convince customers injured by your breaking swords that death trap is the benchamark. if picrel isn’t the saddest attempt at an okissaki you’ve ever seen I don’t know what is And the punchline is the sword is literally one he made. Lol at the dunning Krueger of saying since you made pic above it’s the ultimate katana and nobody has ever done better. FYI edge on edge contact happened in Japan and was either a sign of a desperate chaotic fight or just unskilled duelists. It’s avoided because it damages the edge. But unlike Stefan these primitive swords merely bounce off each other and take a nick. So well known that those nicks are called Hakobore in Japan. This podunk shinshinto some sword bumpkin used in a clumsy fight for instance. Hit another sword, bounced off and took a hakobore. Ugly but at least he didn’t die from shrapnel. And this little katana by Kaga Kiyomitsu -the van goh of smiths- is peppered with sword cuts against its spine, side, and edge on edge hakobore. In this case it stopped being ugly and I’m impressed. The little thing took terrible abuse far worse than the one cut that destroyed Stefan’s “okatana” and managed to limp back home. Which is what they expected from Wazamono swords. TBH I feel like doing a Hary Turtledove and writing a butterfly effect timeline where history is warped bc Japanese swords are Stefangatana tier shrapnel death traps.
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Yagoro
Member
Ikkyu in Kendo and Kenjutsu Practitioner
Posts: 1,577
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Post by Yagoro on Jul 1, 2022 16:59:00 GMT
Lol here anything harder than a tomato or tatami literally could kill you if you hold a Roth a brave attempt to convince customers injured by your breaking swords that death trap is the benchamark. if picrel isn’t the saddest attempt at an okissaki you’ve ever seen I don’t know what is And the punchline is the sword is literally one he made. Lol at the dunning Krueger of saying since you made pic above it’s the ultimate katana and nobody has ever done better. FYI edge on edge contact happened in Japan and was either a sign of a desperate chaotic fight or just unskilled duelists. It’s avoided because it damages the edge. But unlike Stefan these primitive swords merely bounce off each other and take a nick. So well known that those nicks are called Hakobore in Japan. This podunk shinshinto some sword bumpkin used in a clumsy fight for instance. Hit another sword, bounced off and took a hakobore. Ugly but at least he didn’t die from shrapnel. And this little katana by Kaga Kiyomitsu -the van goh of smiths- is peppered with sword cuts against its spine, side, and edge on edge hakobore. In this case it stopped being ugly and I’m impressed. The little thing took terrible abuse far worse than the one cut that destroyed Stefan’s “okatana” and managed to limp back home. Which is what they expected from Wazamono swords. TBH I feel like doing a Hary Turtledove and writing a butterfly effect timeline where history is warped bc Japanese swords are Stefangatana tier shrapnel death traps. That video pisses me off so much lol. It's like someone "disproving" that dark souls is a good game because a souls like they made is bad lmao. And you can tell he made this video because he has a hate semprini for Japanese swords. Wonder how many people you see on the web that neither practice or own a Japanese swords or a European sword this video influenced into thinking that Japanese swords are semprini.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Jul 1, 2022 17:05:55 GMT
I honestly don’t think he hates them. He just hates making them, never learned how to make a functional DH sword and when people start complaining about the shrapnel problem goes lol that’s how all katana work. Apathy mostly, it’s like what would happen if Comic Book Guy became a smith and got asked to make stuff he doesn’t care for. Lol at using one of your homemade swords to prove all swords are bad though. also dark souls is awesome. Even called my account Undead Merchant when I first came but nobody noticed the reference PS: forgot to post the video where he forged his toy sword Also nothing against European steel as stuff made by actual smiths was famed for its resilience but there isn’t much to support the better steel claim that German talking head made: Case in point papers looking at archeological western swords found heavy inclusions in the edge. If you remember the Yaso papers looking at late medieval Japanese I’ve posted, that problem is not found in the swords he studied. A few artsy smiths liked nanban testu for its exotic allure. Perhaps there’s a reason there’s no evidence Hizen (despite sitting on the biggest conduit of nanban tetsu) or Kaga or other Wazamono schools never used it. (I mean actually it is okay once you refine the sulfur out but that’s extra work for the same result). Book I linked on EU is Sword and the Crucible, actual metallurgists and archeologists worked on that so a bit more credible than Comic Book Guy.
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Post by tekaefixe on Jul 3, 2022 16:40:05 GMT
Come on guys, L6 from HC is top notch but if you go high end Motohara (CPM-3V or M4) it will outperform any other Sword in the market. Jason has tested those two alloys in hard targets (yellow bamboo/dry wood) and they didn’t even scratch. He said he could cut and cut and still sell those swords as new as he couldn’t even scratch them. Try to do that with a Nihonto or L6 HC and see the results (try to sell them as unused 😉)
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Post by toddstratton1 on Jul 3, 2022 16:48:49 GMT
Come on guys, L6 from HC is top notch but if you go high end Motohara (CPM-3V or M4) it will outperform any other Sword in the market. Jason has tested those two alloys in hard targets (yellow bamboo/dry wood) and they didn’t even scratch. He said he could cut and cut and still sell those swords as new as he couldn’t even scratch them. Try to do that with a Nihonto or L6 HC and see the results (try to sell them as unused 😉) Im meeting Jason in person on Tuesday, definitely going to inquire about that for what steel type I want to use. Id love a HC blade just because of its rarity, master craftmanship and crazy reviews. Also the only L6 bainite katana I would trust.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Jul 3, 2022 17:05:54 GMT
Come on guys, L6 from HC is top notch but if you go high end Motohara (CPM-3V or M4) it will outperform any other Sword in the market. Jason has tested those two alloys in hard targets (yellow bamboo/dry wood) and they didn’t even scratch. He said he could cut and cut and still sell those swords as new as he couldn’t even scratch them. Try to do that with a Nihonto or L6 HC and see the results (try to sell them as unused 😉) If that’s all it can do I grade C+ m.imgur.com/a/MNgdMsIWood is literally one of the tamest little tests Japan did with its working sword. It’s okay that it can do that, but pretty much any sword that would not result in Masahide publicly denouncing you could do that too. In fact the mass produced RJT swords like the one I’m selling didn’t just do wood but mild steel without damage. Else they’d fail. More impressive is hitting metallic armor if you didn’t heat treat well the edge or shape it right: edge Damage So what’s an A? Pavel and other smiths do hit sloped steel armor without edge damage No gimmicks needed and it can take it If you wanted to prove a blade can cut with the best then one of the tests Meiji Japan and modern smiths use is cutting pork bones. Get a whole cut with spine and ribs and go kathwak. Cheap little bugei could do it ps: I’m not judging. Most modern nihonto (shinsakuto) can’t do better than the wood stage either. The reason is the last time the hard harsh standards on functionality was the war. Now that there’s nobody to judge you for failing harsher tests they go for trippy looks more than function. Still are some that can do torture tests and helm cutting but a minority.
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Post by jyamada on Jul 3, 2022 18:17:49 GMT
Come on guys, L6 from HC is top notch but if you go high end Motohara (CPM-3V or M4) it will outperform any other Sword in the market. Jason has tested those two alloys in hard targets (yellow bamboo/dry wood) and they didn’t even scratch. He said he could cut and cut and still sell those swords as new as he couldn’t even scratch them. Try to do that with a Nihonto or L6 HC and see the results (try to sell them as unused 😉) Im meeting Jason in person on Tuesday, definitely going to inquire about that for what steel type I want to use. Id love a HC blade just because of its rarity, master craftmanship and crazy reviews. Also the only L6 bainite katana I would trust. Don't worry about steel types. What matters is intended usage for the sword. Jason will make recommendations based on user requirements. Toughness and durability is determined by many different variables, and is balanced and optimized with cutting performance for the intended applications.
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Post by tekaefixe on Jul 3, 2022 18:53:47 GMT
Come on guys, L6 from HC is top notch but if you go high end Motohara (CPM-3V or M4) it will outperform any other Sword in the market. Jason has tested those two alloys in hard targets (yellow bamboo/dry wood) and they didn’t even scratch. He said he could cut and cut and still sell those swords as new as he couldn’t even scratch them. Try to do that with a Nihonto or L6 HC and see the results (try to sell them as unused 😉) If that’s all it can do I grade C+ m.imgur.com/a/MNgdMsIWood is literally one of the tamest little tests Japan did with its working sword. It’s okay that it can do that, but pretty much any sword that would not result in Masahide publicly denouncing you could do that too. In fact the mass produced RJT swords like the one I’m selling didn’t just do wood but mild steel without damage. Else they’d fail. More impressive is hitting metallic armor if you didn’t heat treat well the edge or shape it right: edge Damage So what’s an A? Pavel and other smiths do hit sloped steel armor without edge damage No gimmicks needed and it can take it If you wanted to prove a blade can cut with the best then one of the tests Meiji Japan and modern smiths use is cutting pork bones. Get a whole cut with spine and ribs and go kathwak. Cheap little bugei could do it ps: I’m not judging. Most modern nihonto (shinsakuto) can’t do better than the wood stage either. The reason is the last time the hard harsh standards on functionality was the war. Now that there’s nobody to judge you for failing harsher tests they go for trippy looks more than function. Still are some that can do torture tests and helm cutting but a minority. When I meant hard wood I mean the wood stands that hold the tatami vertical. Many videos in Japan where the sword hits it by mistake and bends or seriously dents. Also L6 main characteristic is the toughness (like D2 steel). They can’t hold a candle with one of the toughest steels like the V3. Even M4 is tougher than L6 Bainite albeit harder than V3. This is technology we’re talking about, a modern super car (Think Mclaren for example) will destroy whatever older car regardless of brand or whatever. I almost bet that a top end Motohara would cut a traditional katana in half.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Jul 3, 2022 19:54:51 GMT
You didn’t read the paper did you? Hitting wood stands yes was a mild test. If that’s the best it’s on about the level of a mediocre working sword. You see, with cutting heat treatment and shape are really important and if you don’t have them right then tough cookies. I once saw a crash where a hummer went off the road, the front detached from the rest of the car… I guess you could say modern did destroy just not what you wanted lol. Indeed it’s like comparing modern, some I’m told are beasts fall apart from anything -some might be good, with an outdated Rolls Royce armored car. Yeah you’ll say modernity but the hummer split apart from going into a ditch while the little Royce had bullets flying at the engine but didn’t stop cause it could take it. Case in point that little kaga with the sword fight scars. Someone tried to cut it in half in multiple (edge spine and back) spots but failed cool story, impressive evidence for sure. Has your sword actually survived a sword fight? If not why would something that resisted edge on edge contact break from what you admit is decorative where everyone fears to use in aggressive tests like pork splitting and steel hitting? What evidence do I have? These were torture tested and thrown into war Case in point this had to cut mild steel to be cleared and then got used heavily, being salvaged after a banzai charge. Given it’s track record it would shrug off another blade impact and barely notice while if the heat treatment wasn’t great with moto, boom cutting edge gone. Now you just have to give evidence. I would recommend starting with the pork bone test. It would be good to define what you mean by toughest? Very poor choice of words forums.autosport.com/topic/136253-mclaren-mp4-25-a-structural-fragile-car/bet if they’d stuck to the armored car it wouldn’t be popping in half every other race lol
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Post by tekaefixe on Jul 3, 2022 20:53:49 GMT
You also didn’t read what I wrote. Again, the swords didn’t had a single mark on them, could the swords you mention do the same?! Metals have three main evaluations, rust resistance, hardness/edge retention (RC) and toughness. Insisting that a 1000 years old process that allows NO change will produce a better metal that the latest technology is just silly. FFS the Mclaren example was as in super sports car, as in speed not resistance to a crash. Goodness gracious.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Jul 3, 2022 21:02:22 GMT
You also didn’t read what I wrote. Again, the swords didn’t had a single mark on them, could the swords you mention do the same?! Metals have three main evaluations, rust resistance, hardness/edge retention (RC) and toughness. Insisting that a 1000 years old process that allows NO change will produce a better metal that the latest technology is just silly. FFS the Mclaren example was as in super sports car, as in speed not resistance to a crash. Goodness gracious. Yes, suffering a chip or any deformation of the cutting edge with wood and mild steel would equate to failing the RJT tests during WW2. Its great it could do wood but that’s merely clearing the bare minimum. As mentioned I read, then read the sources and found oh, it cleared the bare basic. That’s why I said you should cut meat with pork bones. An excellent test to see how it ranks in the working sword continuum. The science says with a HRC of 64 and toughness comparable to the best modern steels yes, it holds up www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Study-of-strength-and-toughness-in-Japanese-sword-Yaso-Takaiwa/f75e6d7a92043c923999763505fdbc726329cc26like always geometry and heat treatment are the make or break and without those it’s a Mclaren that pops in half at a touch Indeed, telling me you have a legend but giving no evidence. Put it through a serious test then. As of now there’s more evidence Hanbon is unbreakable since people reported they can survive wood mishaps too. That sounded like saying who would survive a crash, Mclaren or a 100 year old Rolls Royce
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Jul 3, 2022 23:04:27 GMT
Unfortunately I didn’t take videos at the time but I found the bugei and kurin I owned near unbreakable. Why I sold them? I nearly lost a finger because bugei was hard to manage. Yeah that’s weak evidence since no documentation but at least it gives some idea of how hard you can push something without it breaking. I don’t quite know why people who insist something is better than all others can’t just do some good old fashioned testing? For instance this thing did gouge open a mild steel bowl (a poor man’s helmet splitting) and from that and other abuse merely suffered scratches and a small nick or two. If something is legendary it should be easy to show. As for recommending pork cutting as a test. I stand by it, if you refer to Tameshigiri - The History and Development of Japanese Sword Testing, that’s what they used in Meiji Japan and other times as an aggressive test. How well it can cut and if it takes damage in the process should tell much. Perhaps it’s the litmus strip test for performance since what happens is very much a spectrum. That’s why if one test will be done as evidence of something being superlative it can be that.
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