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Post by toddstratton1 on Jun 16, 2022 6:18:01 GMT
Couldn't fit everything in the title but why are japanese swords and artifacts seemingly better preserved than similarly aged weapons from Europe and other places? I noticed this when looking into picking up some antique weapons for collection purposes. Was it just a cultural thing to pass down Japanese swords and keep them in good condition for hundreds of years, with regular care and maintenance? Where as in Europe they were more seen as a tool for war without as much sentimental or cultural value? Hence less reason to keep it in pristine condition?
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 16, 2022 6:46:53 GMT
We don't know how many antique katana weren't preserved. And European medieval is the time period when only ko-to were made in Japan. Dunno how many preserved ko-to exist compared to medieval swords. And Europe has seen more wars with more destruction and probably resmithing after the medieval era.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Jun 16, 2022 7:41:48 GMT
We don't know how many antique katana weren't preserved. And European medieval is the time period when only ko-to were made in Japan. Dunno how many preserved ko-to exist compared to medieval swords. And Europe has seen more wars with more destruction and probably resmithing after the medieval era. I have seen plenty of swords all the way back from 1200 with Japan who have very nice looking blades in impressive condition. Quite a few tachis who were later cut down to the length of katana as well. In Japan at the national treasures museums they also have immaculate condition swords like Masumanes sword. Yet online and even in my very famous local museum the metropolitan museum of art in NYC. The swords are all in one section of the museum. Similar dates on the Japanese swords compared to some of the European, however most the European swords are all in very rough shape. but those Japanese ones were also smithed down to smaller sizes and re polished quite a few times throughout their life span. I don't think the quality of materials in the Japanese swords are better by any means. Often the steel the worked with was worse objectively than that of Europe. Nonetheless it is impressive the shape a lot of those swords are still in even ones from 1300. There is also quite a few European ones in very good condition there too. And I am sure many, many katanas that have been discarded and rotted through the centuries too. It just seems they weren't cared for in the same ways for whatever reason that many of the Japanese ones were, rather they are most often found in the bottom of riverbeds by the 1000s. Where they are preserved in more ideal conditions than buried underground.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jun 16, 2022 7:44:41 GMT
Europe moved on to firearms much sooner than Japan did. Consequently Europeans discarded swords as a primary weapon far earlier than the Japanese who kept them in primary use right up to the 1900's.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Jun 16, 2022 7:46:15 GMT
Europe moved on to firearms much sooner than Japan did. Consequently Europeans discarded swords as a primary weapon far earlier than the Japanese who kept them in primary use right up to the 1900's. It seems culturally as well though, swords were not handed down for generations in the same way there. For others to take care of and preserve those swords for whatever cultural reasons? Or were there certain instances that were the case? It is just interesting to compare and see the contrast.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jun 16, 2022 8:00:19 GMT
Europe moved on to firearms much sooner than Japan did. Consequently Europeans discarded swords as a primary weapon far earlier than the Japanese who kept them in primary use right up to the 1900's. It seems culturally as well though, swords were not handed down for generations in the same way there. For others to take care of and preserve those swords for whatever cultural reasons? Or were there certain instances that were the case? It is just interesting to compare and see the contrast. I suspect the relatively plentiful iron/steel available in Europe made the swords more "tools" of warfare while in Japan where iron/steel was far more scarce and hard to come by, swords were far more highly valued / expensive. This scarcity/value probably helped swords to be handed down generationally.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 16, 2022 10:20:37 GMT
Another thought: Medieval Era in Europe ended 500 years ago and for this half of a millennium medieval arming swords were outdated weapons without historical interest, ca. until the Victorian era. Katana were the weapons to be in the groove in Japan perhaps except a few decades and still then they were heirlooms.
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Post by junesbanunes on Jun 16, 2022 10:57:34 GMT
Europe moved on to firearms much sooner than Japan did. Consequently Europeans discarded swords as a primary weapon far earlier than the Japanese who kept them in primary use right up to the 1900's. This is just part of the legend around Samurai and japanese swords. As soon as firearms where introduced to Japan they became the primary weapon, on the battlefield that is. Off the battlefield swords were the primary civilian sidearm in both Europe and Japan for almost as long. Swords were also passed down the generations in both Europe and Japan however the difference is that japanese swords saw rather little change compared to european ones which prompted people there to upgrade to newer types. A japanese medieval sword could with some minor alterations and adaptations be continued to be used throughout the times all the way up to ww2. A napoleonic dragoon could however not really use his great great great great great grandfathers arming sword, although there are exceptions such as Mad Jack with his scottish broadsword in ww2.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2022 11:19:44 GMT
Different method of preservation. In European preservation they prefer to keep it closer to its original state in which they recieved it, trying to keep as much original material as possible
With Japanese, they don't mind sanding down the metal, removing material over time, or out right replacing things on them, as they would rather have it maintained to a state it would have been when owned and used
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Post by toddstratton1 on Jun 16, 2022 12:42:10 GMT
It seems culturally as well though, swords were not handed down for generations in the same way there. For others to take care of and preserve those swords for whatever cultural reasons? Or were there certain instances that were the case? It is just interesting to compare and see the contrast. I suspect the relatively plentiful iron/steel available in Europe made the swords more "tools" of warfare while in Japan where iron/steel was far more scarce and hard to come by, swords were far more highly valued / expensive. This scarcity/value probably helped swords to be handed down generationally. The Katana especially were considered a large status symbol as it was a way for samurai to separate themselves from common class. Large part of their image and etc. So perhaps that was a big component that also caused it to be carried on in such a way, in Europe I know that swords were also not cheap to make if high quality and I believe were also a status symbol in a way? But not to the extent that it was in Japan. Or what it meant for those who carried it. To my understanding. It is just interesting that there are so many european swords found in river beds and etc. And those are the ones often in the best condition, rather than Japan having swords kept in shrines, certain clans/families who kept swords privately and such until they were sold to collectors, museums, etc.
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Post by JH Lee on Jun 16, 2022 14:04:01 GMT
Different method of preservation. In European preservation they prefer to keep it closer to its original state in which they recieved it, trying to keep as much original material as possible With Japanese, they don't mind sanding down the metal, removing material over time, or out right replacing things on them, as they would rather have it maintained to a state it would have been when owned and used Lol what?
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Post by treeslicer on Jun 16, 2022 14:20:51 GMT
Couldn't fit everything in the title but why are japanese swords and artifacts seemingly better preserved than similarly aged weapons from Europe and other places? I noticed this when looking into picking up some antique weapons for collection purposes. Was it just a cultural thing to pass down Japanese swords and keep them in good condition for hundreds of years, with regular care and maintenance? Where as in Europe they were more seen as a tool for war without as much sentimental or cultural value? Hence less reason to keep it in pristine condition? No place other than Japan has such an unbroken historical sequence of well-preserved edged weapons. None. Not just Europe, but also the Middle East, India, and China have to usually dig their museum examples of medieval and ancient cutlery up archaeologically, because the number that have been passed down in (usually royal) families totals, outside Japan, possibly 200, if that. OTOH, at the outbreak of WW II, the Japanese had uncounted millions ready to draw and use, around half of which dated to before 1600. The reasons for this difference can be summarized as:
1. Geographical isolation. Japan is an isolated archipelago which, prior to VJ-Day in 1945, was last successfully invaded and conquered in prehistoric times. 2. Political continuity. For all practical purposes, the same family rules the country that did so 1800 years ago. Japan has had some colorful history, but never a successful revolution or change of dynasty. This means that the rule of law has never been totally erased at any time. 3. All wars there have been limited affairs, fought between elites, over who collects and spends the taxes1. Not disturbing the commoners who generate those taxes was important to the elites, who also owned the property that would have been destroyed, so total war never made its way to Japan until modern times. No city sacking and a lack of population disturbances means that civilization and its goodies (like shiny swords) has been passed from generation to generation uninterruptedly since the swords were new.
4. A lack of ethnocultural diversity to generate tensions leading to total wars such as the Crusades.
5. Some form of Confucianism always being philosophically dominant in the religious mix, with Shinto animism also present, meaning that filial piety and respect for authority have always been important in Japan, keeping things quieter than elsewhere, and reinforced by a widespread belief in and worship of ghosts and spirits. The Japanese samurai often really believed that the swords harbor spirits, ancestral and otherwise, making them an object of worship, which improved how they preserved them2.
In short, the Japanese have all those swords (along with other heirlooms) because they never had the social disturbances that destroyed such things elsewhere in the world.
Footnotes:
1. If you are a sufficient expert on Japanese history to be aware of the limited and ephemeral exceptions to this pattern, primarily during the Sengoku, why are you reading this drivel I just wrote? Get back to your studies and get to work!! ![:D](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
2. See #1. If you see holes in this presentation, well, I didn't write this for you and your buddies in the faculty lunchroom.
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Jun 16, 2022 15:12:20 GMT
Couldn't fit everything in the title but why are japanese swords and artifacts seemingly better preserved than similarly aged weapons from Europe and other places? I noticed this when looking into picking up some antique weapons for collection purposes. Was it just a cultural thing to pass down Japanese swords and keep them in good condition for hundreds of years, with regular care and maintenance? Where as in Europe they were more seen as a tool for war without as much sentimental or cultural value? Hence less reason to keep it in pristine condition? No place other than Japan has such an unbroken historical sequence of well-preserved edged weapons. None. Not just Europe, but also the Middle East, India, and China have to usually dig their museum examples of medieval and ancient cutlery up archaeologically, because the number that have been passed down in (usually royal) families totals, outside Japan, possibly 200, if that. OTOH, at the outbreak of WW II, the Japanese had uncounted millions ready to draw and use, around half of which dated to before 1600. The reasons for this difference can be summarized as:
1. Geographical isolation. Japan is an isolated archipelago which, prior to VJ-Day in 1945, was last successfully invaded and conquered in prehistoric times. 2. Political continuity. For all practical purposes, the same family rules the country that did so 1800 years ago. Japan has had some colorful history, but never a successful revolution or change of dynasty. This means that the rule of law has never been totally erased at any time. 3. All wars there have been limited affairs, fought between elites, over who collects and spends the taxes1. Not disturbing the commoners who generate those taxes was important to the elites, who also owned the property that would have been destroyed, so total war never made its way to Japan until modern times. No city sacking and a lack of population disturbances means that civilization and its goodies (like shiny swords) has been passed from generation to generation uninterruptedly since the swords were new.
4. A lack of ethnocultural diversity to generate tensions leading to total wars such as the Crusades.
5. Some form of Confucianism always being philosophically dominant in the religious mix, with Shinto animism also present, meaning that filial piety and respect for authority have always been important in Japan, keeping things quieter than elsewhere, and reinforced by a widespread belief in and worship of ghosts and spirits. The Japanese samurai often really believed that the swords harbor spirits, ancestral and otherwise, making them an object of worship, which improved how they preserved them.
In short, the Japanese have all those swords (along with other heirlooms) because they never had the social disturbances that destroyed such things elsewhere in the world.
1. If you are a sufficient expert on Japanese history to be aware of the limited and ephemeral exceptions to this pattern, primarily during the Sengoku, why are you reading this drivel I just wrote? Get back to your studies and get to work!! I would say that the Onin war is too big a discrepancy to say that it is just an "exception". I mean, for gods sake, Kyoto burnt to the ground almost a dozen times, and it's population went from being 100,000s to something like 3,000 by it's end. Also the whole entire political continuity thing is a myth that's only true during the edo period. After the Nara period, the emperor is basically just a puppet akin to the king and queen of modern England, and were almost always controlled by an outside family, and these families usually had different motives from one another. Also the genpei war marked a huge shift in power from the aristocrats to the bushi-(who would later be called samurai).
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Post by durinnmcfurren on Jun 16, 2022 15:16:24 GMT
Different method of preservation. In European preservation they prefer to keep it closer to its original state in which they recieved it, trying to keep as much original material as possible With Japanese, they don't mind sanding down the metal, removing material over time, or out right replacing things on them, as they would rather have it maintained to a state it would have been when owned and used Yes, this.
When you see a news announcement about 'Japanese sword found in pristine condition,' be aware it almost definitely had a pretty severe patina on it or some corrosion. European curators usually do not remove such patinas and corrosion from European blades, but the Japanese curators generally will polish them.
I know some people take issue with a lot of his points sometimes, but I think Matt Easton has a pretty good video covering this, and other reasons for the preservation of Japanese swords:
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Jun 16, 2022 15:16:53 GMT
OK, nice copy. Now add a comment. That was an accidental copy lol
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Jun 16, 2022 15:20:16 GMT
Different method of preservation. In European preservation they prefer to keep it closer to its original state in which they recieved it, trying to keep as much original material as possible With Japanese, they don't mind sanding down the metal, removing material over time, or out right replacing things on them, as they would rather have it maintained to a state it would have been when owned and used Yes, this.
When you see a news announcement about 'Japanese sword found in pristine condition,' be aware it almost definitely had a pretty severe patina on it or some corrosion. European curators usually do not remove such patinas and corrosion from European blades, but the Japanese curators generally will polish them.
I know some people take issue with a lot of his points sometimes, but I think Matt Easton has a pretty good video covering this, and other reasons for the preservation of Japanese swords:
Yeah, but to say they "sand down the metal" is entirely false. Japanese polishing done on Japanese swords is nothing like just sanding it down to get rid of rust. There's a reason a good polish costs over 2k.
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 16, 2022 15:23:45 GMT
I mean, fundamentally it's the same thing. Using abrasives to remove material. Yes, the knowledge and skills one should possess before doing so are very specific, but the principle is the same.
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Post by treeslicer on Jun 16, 2022 15:29:07 GMT
No place other than Japan has such an unbroken historical sequence of well-preserved edged weapons. None. Not just Europe, but also the Middle East, India, and China have to usually dig their museum examples of medieval and ancient cutlery up archaeologically, because the number that have been passed down in (usually royal) families totals, outside Japan, possibly 200, if that. OTOH, at the outbreak of WW II, the Japanese had uncounted millions ready to draw and use, around half of which dated to before 1600. The reasons for this difference can be summarized as:
1. Geographical isolation. Japan is an isolated archipelago which, prior to VJ-Day in 1945, was last successfully invaded and conquered in prehistoric times. 2. Political continuity. For all practical purposes, the same family rules the country that did so 1800 years ago. Japan has had some colorful history, but never a successful revolution or change of dynasty. This means that the rule of law has never been totally erased at any time. 3. All wars there have been limited affairs, fought between elites, over who collects and spends the taxes1. Not disturbing the commoners who generate those taxes was important to the elites, who also owned the property that would have been destroyed, so total war never made its way to Japan until modern times. No city sacking and a lack of population disturbances means that civilization and its goodies (like shiny swords) has been passed from generation to generation uninterruptedly since the swords were new.
4. A lack of ethnocultural diversity to generate tensions leading to total wars such as the Crusades.
5. Some form of Confucianism always being philosophically dominant in the religious mix, with Shinto animism also present, meaning that filial piety and respect for authority have always been important in Japan, keeping things quieter than elsewhere, and reinforced by a widespread belief in and worship of ghosts and spirits. The Japanese samurai often really believed that the swords harbor spirits, ancestral and otherwise, making them an object of worship, which improved how they preserved them.
In short, the Japanese have all those swords (along with other heirlooms) because they never had the social disturbances that destroyed such things elsewhere in the world.
1. If you are a sufficient expert on Japanese history to be aware of the limited and ephemeral exceptions to this pattern, primarily during the Sengoku, why are you reading this drivel I just wrote? Get back to your studies and get to work!! I would say that the Onin war is too big a discrepancy to say that it is just an "exception". I mean, for gods sake, Kyoto war burnt to the ground almost a dozen times, and it's population went from being 100,000s to something like 3,000 by it's end. Also the whole entire political continuity thing is a myth that's only true during the edo period. After the Nara period, the emperor is basically just a puppet akin to the king and queen of modern England, and were almost always controlled by an outside family, and these families usually had different motives from one another. Also the genpei war marked a huge shift in power from the aristocrats to the bushi-(who would later be called samurai). This is a forest and trees thing. Looking at the big picture only, unlike many regions of the world, Japan in general was never scorched to the ground with the survivors hauled away as slaves, neither was there ever a general revolution where taxation and law enforcement came to a halt, allowing property to change hands on a massive scale (like when William I stole England ![:D](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) ). You can find people with the same names as we see in the Heian still in the social elite today, with unbroken genealogies, despite WW II and everything since. Japan is very likely the most socially conservative nation on Earth.
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Jun 16, 2022 15:37:24 GMT
I would say that the Onin war is too big a discrepancy to say that it is just an "exception". I mean, for gods sake, Kyoto war burnt to the ground almost a dozen times, and it's population went from being 100,000s to something like 3,000 by it's end. Also the whole entire political continuity thing is a myth that's only true during the edo period. After the Nara period, the emperor is basically just a puppet akin to the king and queen of modern England, and were almost always controlled by an outside family, and these families usually had different motives from one another. Also the genpei war marked a huge shift in power from the aristocrats to the bushi-(who would later be called samurai). This is a forest and trees thing. Looking at the big picture only, unlike many regions of the world, Japan in general was never scorched to the ground with the survivors hauled away as slaves, neither was there ever a general revolution where taxation and law enforcement came to a halt, allowing property to change hands on a massive scale. You can find people with the same names as we see in the Heian still in the social elite today, with unbroken genealogies, despite WW II and everything since. Japan is very likely the most socially conservative nation on Earth. When you say it that way, yes it is true. That is mostly to do with the fact that Japan is lucky enough that china never considered them worth invading, which could be attributed to their military might, or their lack of resources that would warrant an invasion. Also I would say unbroken genealogies mostly dating back to the muromachi(some do have proof to date back to the heian tho). This is mostly because no one really knows for certain who broke off from the minamoto, as during the muromachi it was very popular for new clans to be formed and with no evidence just claim they were "descendants of the minamoto". For example, in the muromachi, people would just make up lineages to prove their family had a "long and glorious history". This mostly occurred when said person was moving up in the ranks, just to legitimize their family and give them the opportunity to get more shoen/fiefs.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Jun 16, 2022 19:26:59 GMT
Different method of preservation. In European preservation they prefer to keep it closer to its original state in which they recieved it, trying to keep as much original material as possible With Japanese, they don't mind sanding down the metal, removing material over time, or out right replacing things on them, as they would rather have it maintained to a state it would have been when owned and used “Original state” aka magnetite is not stable on a generational timescale, every year it grows slowly and mineralizes more surface steel, after a century much of the outer steel has been mineralized and it’s metallurgical properties obliterated this is why scientist turned prolific dealer Darcy Broadbank recommend oiling even nakago to slow the mineralization and obliteration of details. From the short view blade patina is nice and gives age, from the long view though the sword is on a march to extinction. Also, well conserved swords that have not suffered edge damage or corrosion at most need a finishing polish every couple of generations, it removes a micron or two of surface steel. It’s why temple and treasure swords are virtually unchanged from how they looked 800 years ago. Black rust does the same steel removal in a year. When you see a news announcement about 'Japanese sword found in pristine condition,' be aware it almost definitely had a pretty severe patina on it or some corrosion. European curators usually do not remove such patinas and corrosion from European blades, but the Japanese curators generally will polish them. I know some people take issue with a lot of his points sometimes, but I think Matt Easton has a pretty good video covering this, and other reasons for the preservation of Japanese swords:
Those aren’t considered “pristine” I can say, if they had significant corrosion and needed metal removal and the geometry was altered they’re now considered “tired” swords and sell for peanuts if ordinary quality or are barred from higher papers if they would have otherwise been treasure swords Take this ~700 year old dagger for instance, Uda Yoshikuni, a Yamato spinoff with nice massame and blue koto steel? Well someone let it rust after the war so it needed an aggressive polish and the geometry changed and some hadaware opened. It’s still functional and scapple sharp but because it’s now tired or near tired I got it for less than 400$. The type of stuff you’re talking about takes a sword from pristine to bargain bin. ![868F42A4-E904-4EB6-BBAB-3663B89272F6.jpeg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/AQgsEEHqunT0ujWbVkka.png) ![69C760E9-CCC7-4F19-9343-E32854C34CE1.jpeg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/sGSHvwalbQWciTFQdnGV.png) ![A24E74BD-43F1-422B-9E50-2554175C81F1.jpeg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/PoDHOJWQfKVriTZVLEjA.png) ![87C764B2-DF9E-44DC-9882-721BA0AA3B9D.jpeg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/ozsPuabyXNqPRCkakzsp.png) ![F79739B2-7DF7-4940-AD8E-FDFF1B3F82DE.jpeg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/umoZPwsysWFDpzKVhjWZ.png) ![EC4BC59D-64C8-435F-979E-97D4D0588482.jpeg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/0SXQDJWEVqPE0hKIytxi.png) In general it’s seen as a fiasco if you’ve neglected a sword enough that it needs major metal removal and harms the price seems he’s a dolphin sized modern saber dealer, not really someone who knows about polishing lol. You might as well cite me as a genius on rapiers while at it. A first rate dealer and polisher like Moses would have a good laugh if you told him he sands swords or that you do anything but micron removal for all but the worst damage. He has a good walkthrough here nihontoantiques.com/sword-restoration/
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