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Post by blairbob on Jun 3, 2022 8:15:26 GMT
I would definitely not buy a Motohara as a beginner.
Eventually, yes. Get something super nice.
Most people's first cars were basically a running pile of crap. If you were lucky, it was brand new or not very used.
Just like most ppl don't end up marrying their first SO. You go through a bunch of bad dates, crappy relationships, hookups and what not.
The fit and finish of all the Japanese iaito always tend to be superior. Sure, you might get decent to pretty good from some Chinese sword companies that might even hold up in the same ballpark but generally not for the same price of a standard Japanese Iaito ($300-600).
The ito tends to be better, it's wrapped better, the saya doesn't rattle as much, you can get actual koiguchi with horn. Etc
OTOH, you can get a blunted steel iaito from a Chinese swordshop. You can still stab yourself just as easily with an aluminum blade with a pointy end.
But yes, good idea to get some kind of blunted sword so you don't cut off your fingers if you cut through the saya (though you can reinforce them with same or rattan which is a good idea besides looking baller)
If you do intend to start training somewhere, the sensei will have to approve your iaito. They won't care if you are bringing in a blunted Masamune that has been refit if they don't think it fits you.
So pick up a decent bokken/bokuto and maybe a cheap iaito. Hold off on the more expensive iaito until a sensei says, "get this" as it's really not much of a democratic decision.
burn through some cheaper swords, resell them at a minor loss and figure out what you like and don't like.
Initially I wanted an Orchid from Hanwei because well, I like Orchids. Bought something else. It was great but it was an impulse buy and would have needed a longer tsuka. Sold it with the intention of buying something with a longer tsuka when it came in and went through some cheaper swords (Practical, Practical plus, etc) besides getting to handle this and that of friends. Eventually got to handle an Orchid a buddy has and I'm so glad I didn't because it's such a light blade (yeah, we gave said buddy a lot of semprini about it but it is nice)
Finally found something I liked which eventually got stolen though initially I went with it to just test the brand and ordered something from them a lot fancier and got burned.
At some point, I'll get my final blade but I'm likely to go through a few more until I get there.
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Post by bradc on Jun 3, 2022 16:52:46 GMT
Tozando might sell good martial arts stuff but their nihonto are overpriced and they slipped someone a pricy tachi without mentioning it had a kitae ware “crack”. That’s a very minor flaw but still, other places give full disclosure and they didn’t apart from photos where it was out of the way and hard to see. True story. The antiques? Their made to order ones (where they are the middle man / agent for a smith) quote on par for pricing with other agents. They do default to pretty basic fittings but you can get nicer ones. My buddy's was ~11k and he separately purchased koshirae. Tozando actually arranged pick up of his antique fittings, and coordinated with the smith to ensure the blade would be appropriately scaled.
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Post by bradc on Jun 3, 2022 17:00:57 GMT
As a beginner a sharp sword isn't just a risk to yourself. You will most likely damage the saya over time (they are not cheap to replace) and they pose a risk to those near you (Hense many Dojo won't allow them for non senior members).
I transitioned to primarily using my shinken after well over a decade and I still use my Iaito when class is packed or I am teaching more junior students (typically you need more close up demonstrations of concepts with juniors). I even use my bokken sometimes for safety as well.
So yes as other said Iaito are great training tools. Every JSA student I know owns one. They may also have a shinken, but an Iaito is essential. (You can't bring a shinken to a Japanese seminar easily so an Iaito is needed for travel).
Oh and I should mention. Every JSA school has different prefered sword specs. The odds of getting the right one before talking to a future Sensei are slim to none. So don't spend too much on the first one.
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steveboy
Member
Measure twice, cut once.
Posts: 369
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Post by steveboy on Jun 3, 2022 17:29:17 GMT
My 2 cents' worth echoes some other thoughts here. A cheaper iaito at first isn't a bad idea, as you're a lot more likely to bend the blade or crack the saya in your first six months at the very least.
FWIW I alternate between a very nice lightweight alloy iaito with beautiful balance, and a $60 steel ebay clunker weighted like a caveman club. I do it because I think the high-quality iaito is unrealistically light, whereas the lower-quality sword weighs closer to my shinken and feels more realistic in use. I like my muscle memory not getting too accustomed to one thing or the other.
I also think that training with a shinken before learning proper technique and control is a recipe for disaster. I say this not from some holier-than-thou perspective but as someone who did this not long before taking formal batto-jutsu classes. I cut my left thumb pretty routinely, and I'm lucky I didn't cut through the saya and open my hand up, or worse.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Jun 3, 2022 19:05:57 GMT
As a beginner a sharp sword isn't just a risk to yourself. You will most likely damage the saya over time (they are not cheap to replace) and they pose a risk to those near you (Hense many Dojo won't allow them for non senior members). I transitioned to primarily using my shinken after well over a decade and I still use my Iaito when class is packed or I am teaching more junior students (typically you need more close up demonstrations of concepts with juniors). I even use my bokken sometimes for safety as well. So yes as other said Iaito are great training tools. Every JSA student I know owns one. They may also have a shinken, but an Iaito is essential. (You can't bring a shinken to a Japanese seminar easily so an Iaito is needed for travel). Oh and I should mention. Every JSA school has different prefered sword specs. The odds of getting the right one before talking to a future Sensei are slim to none. So don't spend too much on the first one. Thank you for your input, I have definitely decided to go with a cheap Iaito for now, I will invest in a nicer one once I am more familiar with things and join a proper dojo. And wow 11k usd for that sword you mentioned before? That is nuts! Must be exceptional quality and craftsmanship. Rarely ever see a sword go above 3k at most unless it's a genuine antique blade.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Jun 3, 2022 19:10:25 GMT
My 2 cents' worth echoes some other thoughts here. A cheaper iaito at first isn't a bad idea, as you're a lot more likely to bend the blade or crack the saya in your first six months at the very least.
FWIW I alternate between a very nice lightweight alloy iaito with beautiful balance, and a $60 steel ebay clunker weighted like a caveman club. I do it because I think the high-quality iaito is unrealistically light, whereas the lower-quality sword weighs closer to my shinken and feels more realistic in use. I like my muscle memory not getting too accustomed to one thing or the other.
I also think that training with a shinken before learning proper technique and control is a recipe for disaster. I say this not from some holier-than-thou perspective but as someone who did this not long before taking formal batto-jutsu classes. I cut my left thumb pretty routinely, and I'm lucky I didn't cut through the saya and open my hand up, or worse.
Yes good idea, that is the decision I am making for now, just picking up a basic Iaito for general practice until I am further along and more knowledgeable with things, as well as joining a school. I will be honest though as a long term martial artist and Jeet Kune Do student under Tommy Carruthers since 2009. I find traditional martial arts schools and practices do a lot of unnecessary and impractical things with training sometimes. Nevertheless as of this moment they obviously know far more then me. But after being very experienced in martial arts I cringe at some techniques and exercises I see in traditional Karate and the like, and I see the same unrealistic drills and techniques in kenjutsu at times as well, of which I am skeptical will work in a live sparring or fighting situation.
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Post by bradc on Jun 3, 2022 19:50:43 GMT
Thank you for your input, I have definitely decided to go with a cheap Iaito for now, I will invest in a nicer one once I am more familiar with things and join a proper dojo. And wow 11k usd for that sword you mentioned before? That is nuts! Must be exceptional quality and craftsmanship. Rarely ever see a sword go above 3k at most unless it's a genuine antique blade. I should also mention with shinken like steveboy I don't want to sound arrogant etc re shinken use. Even after years of practice I would still feel the Ha of the Iaito or kissaki glance my skin from time to time, or hear a noise indicating I clipped my saya on the draw.. With a shinken there would be blood. When you are using a shinken you need to be 100% there focus wise. It's far easier to adjust for that once you are comfortable with your movements. Re weight, which a few people have mentioned. In general Iaito can be lighter and Shinken heavier, but there is a middle ground with heavier Iaito and lighter shinken tha overlaps. So it's not a perfect rule, check the specs of the one you are buying. That being said a lighter sword is nice for longer practice sessions, but when weights are only a little different being well balanced can make a bigger difference. Also re Nihonto pricing. Custom newly made Japanese swords are in general really expensive. You are paying for a lot of time from a small number of availible craftsman in a high cost of living country. You could easily spend several times that for a custom blade from a famous smith, polisher and koshirae fitter especially for an "art sword"
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pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Jun 3, 2022 19:58:24 GMT
I think most views on the subject have been expressed. FWIW I would not recommend an aluminium iaito based on the weight. I have a Musashi iaito with a carbon steel blade. It is about par with the weight of my katanas, a tad heavier if anything. As I only practice technique and handling it has held up well for about a decade and a half. By all means, talk to your sensei first, but with no immediate school in mind you might consider an inexpensive iaito to begin with and go from there later.
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Post by ambulocetus on Jun 20, 2022 21:25:11 GMT
Back when I started, I couldn't afford a Japanese made Iaito, so I used a remounted Gunto. That combined with my job at the time, gave me Carpal Tunnel syndrome. Luckily I found a better job and finally got an Iaito. At first I thought was getting a better workout by using a heavy sword, but really I was just hurting myself.
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Post by MichaelRS on Jun 21, 2022 5:02:31 GMT
Why not buy a 140 buck 1060 laito katana and practice with what feels like the real thing? Or buy a 75 buck 1045 sharp katana...which normally is overweight, and grind off the sharp edge? I could get a real steel sword and request it be made dull, or buy one that has a dulled edge as is. But I want a higher quality sword that is well made and balanced for long time use. Also spending more for higher quality means I am more committed to follow through with practice and training because of the investment. Katanas that are sub 200 dollars always seem to have a ton of issues spring up with them. And they just aren't well made imo. A cheaper Iaito is a good option though, its just again I want something of quality that will last a long time from a good maker. I was going to suggest the opposite; Buy a quality iaito at 1st and get a cheaper sharp blade from Hanbon Forge to temporarily satisfy your cutting jones as you save money for your Motohara. After some months or a year you probably won't even remember that you spent <$275 for the HF blade and so getting that Motohara womt seem like you're spending that much money buying sword after sword after sword. Also, I don't know if I understood you correctly in an earlier post, but you said something about home study? Personally I think if that's all you're ever going to do for fun, which it looks like I'm ending up doing, IMO that's fine. Just be aware if you're doing it through books or on YouTube or instructional DVDs or whatever, it's a little bit like learning karate the same way and so some finer points of the art may be lacking but not having in-person instruction. Now I'm just screwing around, since I cannot find any kind of JSA school in my area that really meets my needs, so that really doesn't matter. I'm entertaining myself. But I know if I ever did take up instruction I would probably have develop some muscle memory bad habits that might take a while to break. So there's nothing wrong with self entertainment (take that any way you want😁) as long as you're aware of and accept the limitations.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Jun 21, 2022 5:35:32 GMT
I could get a real steel sword and request it be made dull, or buy one that has a dulled edge as is. But I want a higher quality sword that is well made and balanced for long time use. Also spending more for higher quality means I am more committed to follow through with practice and training because of the investment. Katanas that are sub 200 dollars always seem to have a ton of issues spring up with them. And they just aren't well made imo. A cheaper Iaito is a good option though, its just again I want something of quality that will last a long time from a good maker. I was going to suggest the opposite; Buy a quality iaito at 1st and get a cheaper sharp blade from Hanbon Forge to temporarily satisfy your cutting jones as you save money for your Motohara. After some months or a year you probably won't even remember that you spent <$275 for the HF blade and so getting that Motohara womt seem like you're spending that much money buying sword after sword after sword. Also, I don't know if I understood you correctly in an earlier post, but you said something about home study? Personally I think if that's all you're ever going to do for fun, which it looks like I'm ending up doing, IMO that's fine. Just be aware if you're doing it through books or on YouTube or instructional DVDs or whatever, it's a little bit like learning karate the same way and so some finer points of the art may be lacking but not having in-person instruction. Now I'm just screwing around, since I cannot find any kind of JSA school in my area that really meets my needs, so that really doesn't matter. I'm entertaining myself. But I know if I ever did take up instruction I would probably have develop some muscle memory bad habits that might take a while to break. So there's nothing wrong with self entertainment (take that any way you want😁) as long as you're aware of and accept the limitations. As of now I am picking up a very high quality SBG project X katana from someone selling on site. I wont be cutting with it much at all but to practice technique aside from the sword draw Iaido stuff. As that would be more risky. I might join a local school but I mainly want to join a Hema school and do some sparring for combat application. Both with a blunted Katana, and a Long sword. As for swords I plan to mainly train with a long sword, and Katana with two different styles and training methods regarded to both. No disrespect to the arts and traditions. But mainly when I practice with the katana I want to focus on technique and mechanics with training when I do have time to do it, with traditional schools they have a lot of focus in time with formalities and cultural learnings. I can appreciate that and definitely respect it, but I don't have a ton of time to train so I want to focus on reps, mechanics, and technique as much as possible. Then do sparring with a Hema group. I do need to learn proper form and such with the Katana and Iaido so wherever I can go to learn that would be nice, or doing online video training. I have been doing empty handed martial arts for over 15 years so I understand body mechanics, leverage, etc. Faster time learning when I do train with weapons. But of course will need some kind of guidance and training to learn it from someone all the same. Ideally I can find a place that fits that training style well. As for the Iaito sword, I am still interested in picking it up but will have to wait a bit. I want the sword available from that person because its also just a really nice investment and collection piece for the lowered cost.
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Post by MichaelRS on Jun 21, 2022 5:50:51 GMT
I was going to suggest the opposite; Buy a quality iaito Also, I don't know if I understood you correctly [ As of now I am picking up a very high quality SBG project X katana from someone selling on site....As that would be more risky. I might join a local school but I mainly want to join a Hema school and do some sparring for combat application. Both with a blunted Katana, and a Long sword.......No disrespect to the arts and traditions. But mainly when I practice with the katana I want to focus on technique and mechanics with training when I do have time to do it, with traditional schools they have a lot of ......but I don't have a ton of time to train so I want to focus on reps, mechanics, and technique as much as possible. Then do sparring with a Hema group......I can go to learn that would be nice, or doing online video training. I have been doing empty handed martial arts for over 15 years so I understand body mechanics, leverage, etc. Faster time learning when I do train with weapons. But of course will need some kind of guidance and training to learn it from someone all the same. Ideally I can find a place that fits that training style well. As for the Iaito sword, I am still interested in picking it up but will have to wait a bit. I want the sword available from that person because its also just a really nice investment and collection piece for the lowered cost. well you definitely sound like a man with a plan, and that's good.👍 Hope you didn't think I was talking down to you. You never really know who you're talking to on these forums so I was just trying to cover a spectrum of information. Plus, when it comes to many aspects of this stuff, I'm not qualified to talk down to anybody 😁
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