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Post by MichaelRS on May 29, 2022 23:10:28 GMT
The title pretty much says it; Which JSA style/school lends itself more to practical application, some sort of kenjutsu?
And whatever it is, can one usually find such instruction coupled with Dojos that offer other styles of JSA?
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Yagoro
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Ikkyu in Kendo and Kenjutsu Practitioner
Posts: 1,580
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Post by Yagoro on May 29, 2022 23:30:02 GMT
The title pretty much says it; Which JSA style/school lends itself more to practical application, some sort of kenjutsu? And whatever it is, can one usually find such instruction coupled with Dojos that offer other styles of JSA? Good question: most styles of kenjutsu are rather practicle, but I would say the most practical style is probably yagyu shinkage ryu. This is because it almost entirely focuses on fighting against unarmored opponents, the only thing that i would consider practical in the modern day. For instruction on this style, good luck lol. The only person in the USA certified to teach it is Paul Manogue out of New Jersey. I have contacted him many times about it, and have yet to hear back from him, so it is best to assume he is not taking any new students at the moment.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on May 29, 2022 23:38:40 GMT
During the war many officers did not have a background with swords, so the imperial government set about developing a quick to use curriculum that was easy to remember and effective. Their academies taught Toyama Ryu, and seem to have taught officers to kesagiri in a bayonet fight, probably because a successful cut threatens a tremendous amount of nerves and arteries. Shinkendo seems to have been influenced by Toyama Ryu. Also, I’m still bummed about selling my war blade by mistake.
Anyways, seeing as how that was the last form of swordsmanship used in war I’m inclined to vote for Toyama Ryu.
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Post by MichaelRS on May 30, 2022 0:37:47 GMT
The title pretty much says it; Which JSA style/school lends itself more to practical application, some sort of kenjutsu? And whatever it is, can one usually find such instruction coupled with Dojos that offer other styles of JSA? The only person in the USA certified to teach it is Paul Manogue out of New Jersey. I have contacted him many times about it, and have yet to hear back from him, so it is best to assume he is not taking any new students at the moment. That's cool. Leaving California to go study in New Jersey wouldn't be happening until I win the lottery anyway 😉. And if that happens, as far as Japanese culture goes, JSA would probably take a backseat to sake and geishas. Thanks for the response
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Post by MichaelRS on May 30, 2022 0:39:41 GMT
Anyways, seeing as how that was the last form of swordsmanship used in war I’m inclined to vote for Toyama Ryu. 👍
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Post by JH Lee on May 30, 2022 1:37:04 GMT
JSA would benefit from the kind of renaissance that is happening in HEMA. There is way too much bickering, tacky name-dropping, and purity-testing in JSA. Huge turn off for me.
Personally, to the extent that it "matters" at all, I'd rather be "good at" sword fighting than good at a particular ryu.
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Post by MichaelRS on May 30, 2022 1:46:52 GMT
JSA would benefit from the kind of renaissance that is happening in HEMA. There is way too much bickering, tacky name-dropping, and purity-testing in JSA. Huge turn off for me. Personally, to the extent that it "matters" at all, I'd rather be "good at" sword fighting than good at a particular ryu. well yeah and maybe my question was too distilled to get to that point, but I didn't want to sound like a bloodthirsty wannabe Samurai by asking which would best teach me Japanese sword fighting and/or be most applicable in the event of the zombie apocalypse (the one with the fast-moving zombies). So far everything I've learned about Japanese sword useage i've learn by watching three episodes of Rurouni Kenshin on Netflix. But I can't help but think there's more to it than that...such as like all the fundamentals.
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Yagoro
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Ikkyu in Kendo and Kenjutsu Practitioner
Posts: 1,580
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Post by Yagoro on May 30, 2022 2:09:12 GMT
JSA would benefit from the kind of renaissance that is happening in HEMA. There is way too much bickering, tacky name-dropping, and purity-testing in JSA. Huge turn off for me. Personally, to the extent that it "matters" at all, I'd rather be "good at" sword fighting than good at a particular ryu. The thing with hema is that it hasn't really been continuously practiced for the past 500 years, so it is rather easy to deviate from manuscripts since by definition hema is a rennaisance of European martial arts. JSA(atleast kenjutsu) has been continuously practiced for hundreds of years, so it's kinda tough to accept new techniques for it. The last time I'd say that JSA had a renaissance was the 19th century, kenjutsu in particular hasn't really had a renaissance since the 17th century. Also no idea what schools you have seen for kenjutsu, but there doesn't seem to be much bickering or hate, atleast in the states. Kendo and iaido, however, are a completely different matter, and especially for kendo I can attest first hand that there is way too much arguing about stupid stuff that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. But I do agree with your opinion that you would rather be good at sword fighting than a particular ryu. Many sensei that teach these ryu are very strict when it comes to adhering to particular rules of the ryu(i am fortunate that my sensei is not like this), without any thought that the people who made these ryu(tsukahara bokuden is a good example), would incorporate many different techniques and styles to form their own way of fighting. This seems to be lost with modern Kenjutsu, leaving it to be stagnant almost, with no new techniques being developed or added to the existing styles.
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Post by treeslicer on May 30, 2022 4:17:16 GMT
IMHO, Taisha ryu has one of the most impressive claims to both practical applicability and koryu authenticity:
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Post by RufusScorpius on May 30, 2022 6:03:34 GMT
I really can't add anything except to share my personal experience. I too was disappointed in many of the JSA schools as they were very rigid in their teachings and never expanding to fighting other styles or weapons. I also felt they were "incomplete". I left the official JSA school systems a long time ago and began a personal journey of what I call "Jeet Ken Jitsu", which is a way of saying that my sword style has no style.
HOWEVER, the caveat to a free form is that you MUST know some type of style first, only then can you build upon it and create your own. I now study whatever I can from whoever can teach it, bet it a Japanese, Chinese, Philippine, HEMA, whatever. I could never have done that if I didn't have formal training in the past to give me a reference point from which to move forward. I don't think it's possible to start at "zero" and learn free form sword.
There are a lot of people that think like me, but sadly, Kenjutsu schools of any kind are few and far between. And to the best of my knowledge, there aren't any "recognized" schools that teach mixed weapon/culture styles of fighting. Perhaps we can band together and start something among ourselves, but I'm not sure that would be beneficial to do that since the "style" is founded on not having a regulated school in the first place. \ o /
I've spent the last few weeks in Europe meeting up with sword enthusiasts (when I wasn't doing actual work) and I have a butt-ton of videos to process. We sparred with spear, dan dao, two-handed, one handed, sword and buckler, and then mixed styles: sword and buckler vs. ninjato, dual wield vs. katana, etc. You would never be able to experiment like that in a regulated school. And yes, it was a lot of fun, very informative, and yielded surprising results.
Because of my mixed style journey, I no longer think that Asian MA is the best. Every culture has a fighting style that is very effective and I take none of them lightly and respect all of them equally.
I wish you the best of luck in your personal development and I truly hope you can link up with like-minded people.
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Yagoro
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Ikkyu in Kendo and Kenjutsu Practitioner
Posts: 1,580
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Post by Yagoro on May 30, 2022 6:57:03 GMT
I really can't add anything except to share my personal experience. I too was disappointed in many of the JSA schools as they were very rigid in their teachings and never expanding to fighting other styles or weapons. I also felt they were "incomplete". I left the official JSA school systems a long time ago and began a personal journey of what I call "Jeet Ken Jitsu", which is a way of saying that my sword style has no style. HOWEVER, the caveat to a free form is that you MUST know some type of style first, only then can you build upon it and create your own. I now study whatever I can from whoever can teach it, bet it a Japanese, Chinese, Philippine, HEMA, whatever. I could never have done that if I didn't have formal training in the past to give me a reference point from which to move forward. I don't think it's possible to start at "zero" and learn free form sword. There are a lot of people that think like me, but sadly, Kenjutsu schools of any kind are few and far between. And to the best of my knowledge, there aren't any "recognized" schools that teach mixed weapon/culture styles of fighting. Perhaps we can band together and start something among ourselves, but I'm not sure that would be beneficial to do that since the "style" is founded on not having a regulated school in the first place. \ o / I've spent the last few weeks in Europe meeting up with sword enthusiasts (when I wasn't doing actual work) and I have a butt-ton of videos to process. We sparred with spear, dan dao, two-handed, one handed, sword and buckler, and then mixed styles: sword and buckler vs. ninjato, dual wield vs. katana, etc. You would never be able to experiment like that in a regulated school. And yes, it was a lot of fun, very informative, and yielded surprising results. Because of my mixed style journey, I no longer think that Asian MA is the best. Every culture has a fighting style that is very effective and I take none of them lightly and respect all of them equally. I wish you the best of luck in your personal development and I truly hope you can link up with like-minded people. To add to rufus's point, and from my experiences in tangsoodo, learning a certain style of fighting can make it much easier to learn others, while also improving what those styles lack. For example, tangsoodo features various kicks that lower ranked practitioners enjoy using in sparring. As a fan of using fists over feet, I developed my own way to defend against practitioners that enjoy kicking by using my shins and knees to block/ prevent kicks from being executed. This is partially borrowed from muay thai, but it just so happens to be effective in tangsoodo. So my advice is pick a style you think is cool, practice it, and once you are maybe 1st or 2nd dan, start to develop your own way of fighting off the observed weaknesses of the style you studied.
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Post by divinewind on May 30, 2022 7:09:45 GMT
I really don't have anything much to add except, from my own experience, check what is available in your area. It's fine to postulate and suppose, but if moving across the country isn't possible, then you'll need to choose from what -is- available. You may even choose to study more than one discipline at the same time.
In my case, I am studying Iaido and Jodo. One is attack using a sword, and the other is defending against a sword. I like them both, but other than Kendo, I have no other sword sports to choose from. The lack of sparring in a learning environment with a sensei is a shame, but there is nothing at all stopping anyone from doing some informal sparring with others outside of class times. I'm not actually interested in Kendo, but I've been considering buying a Bogu set to use for other sparring sessions to allow for more forceful contact.
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Post by MichaelRS on May 30, 2022 7:47:42 GMT
I appreciate all the thoughts and links everybody has shared.
From my youth (anything under about 45 😄) I have a background in martial arts which includes Aikido, American Kenpo, Kung Fu San Soo, and Krav Maga. I study for a period of time in those styles where instructors were willing to teach in no-frills versions.
Other styles I dabbled in but we're disappointing or just not interesting for one reason or another. For example; I never thought I would be good at high kicks until I took Taekwondo...then I KNEW I wasn't.
But having had my body abused, both on and off the job, for many decades those decades ago, I no longer up for such direct vigorous workouts of being thrown, punched or joint locked Etc. So I thought it would be better to have a nice safe sword to swing around.
But thus far all my knowledge regarding Japanese sword use comes from watching three episodes of Rurouni Kenshin on Netflix, but I can't help but think that there's a little bit more to it than that...like all the fundamentals.
But yeah, it looks like I'm out of luck for what I want because while there are some Kendo schools around here, and I'm going to check them out in person to see what they have to say, there's not a whole lot of Japanese sword stuff going on around here.
I really do appreciate everyone who has taken the time to respond thus far with their advice and experience
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Post by RufusScorpius on May 30, 2022 12:35:00 GMT
I really don't have anything much to add except, from my own experience, check what is available in your area. It's fine to postulate and suppose, but if moving across the country isn't possible, then you'll need to choose from what -is- available. You may even choose to study more than one discipline at the same time.... That's great advice, but it also comes with a caveat. You should start with "something" rather than "nothing", but if you go into a training program knowing that you have no real desire to learn it, then that could lead to a loss of motivation and a feeling that you are wasting your money. No easy answer outside of being self-motivated and self-disciplined to achieve your personal goals- whatever that path may be.
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Post by JH Lee on May 30, 2022 13:30:41 GMT
Rufus is 100% correct about the importance of having solid foundations. Be extremely wary and skeptical of ANY instructor that skimps on fundamentals and is happy to give you a new belt or whatever in exchange for your monthly tuition. That's a bullshido McDojo. Plenty of those. Too many.
There are also too many tai-chi equivalent of JSA out there, with masters and disciples who collectively could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag.
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Post by JH Lee on May 30, 2022 14:26:33 GMT
I have to say that I have frustrations similar to some that have been voiced here. I'm a lifelong martial artist, TaeKwonDo and Aikido, been taking Batto-jutsu for the last two years. I'm enormously frustrated with it -- not because it isn't practical, but because it seems so incomplete.
Batto tends to emphasize practical, applicable, realistic techniques, especially draws & initial cuts. It's spare and not very flashy. The pared-down elegance appeals to me.
But.
These dudes never fight each other. No one spars with shinai. There's no practicing blocks with bokken; the only blocking, or block & counter, is during pre-established kumitachi. They generally don't work on tameshigiri until 2nd dan.
This means you can get a black belt without ever having faced an opponent, used a live blade, or even cut anything. I think that's somewhere between crazy and embarrassing. It feels like the sword equivalent of playing air guitar.
I don't want to step on any toes here, but my experience has been that traditional Japanese dojos have what I'll call a misplaced confidence in the utility & effectivenss of idealized techniques without the inconvenience of actually having tested them out in reality (or something close to it). This was my experience with Aikido as well.
It's why I'm reluctant to recommend batto even though I enjoy it: What's there is pretty good, but something in me is like, Where's the rest of it?
Absolutely correct. Techniques that are not pressure-tested against a resistant opponent become stagnant. You can become good at a technique. But will you be good at fighting? That's something which you will never know without actual sparring. Even with sparring, there are limitations and rules. For example, this is one of the best examples of actual kenjutsu applications on YouTube: Missing, however, are strikes against the legs. Also missing is GRAPPLING. There are still some schools like TennenRishin that incorporate judo and jiu-jitsu upon getting into close tsubazeriai range. Gekkiken. But I can't travel to Japan any day soon to learn. There ARE some places that are trying to innovate, with classical kenjutsu + MMA style grappling mixed in (with students and instructors of diverse backgrounds including Kali and BJJ, but with a passion and focus on JSA). But you gotta do some digging to find them. Almost without exception, such schools and groups will be mocked by the purist JSA crowd, who only practice their way of solo kata and kumitachi; who will prattle endlessly about lineage and authenticity and call anything else outside of their bubble "fake" and "wrong."
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Post by RufusScorpius on May 30, 2022 14:32:34 GMT
Purist can squeal all they want. I have a sparring montage up on the Sword use and Training forum. Should be good for years worth of scorn from the "professionals". In any event, none of them are signing my paycheck so their opinions of my training and style is "noted".
With that said, I do respect anybody who wants to study the sword in their own way. If they want to preserve tradition and culture, then that's great. My choice is to study the sword in the practical applications. To each his own.
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Post by soulfromheart on May 30, 2022 14:55:45 GMT
I have to say that I have frustrations similar to some that have been voiced here. I'm a lifelong martial artist, TaeKwonDo and Aikido, been taking Batto-jutsu for the last two years. I'm enormously frustrated with it -- not because it isn't practical, but because it seems so incomplete.
Batto tends to emphasize practical, applicable, realistic techniques, especially draws & initial cuts. It's spare and not very flashy. The pared-down elegance appeals to me.
But.
These dudes never fight each other. No one spars with shinai. There's no practicing blocks with bokken; the only blocking, or block & counter, is during pre-established kumitachi. They generally don't work on tameshigiri until 2nd dan.
This means you can get a black belt without ever having faced an opponent, used a live blade, or even cut anything. I think that's somewhere between crazy and embarrassing. It feels like the sword equivalent of playing air guitar.
I don't want to step on any toes here, but my experience has been that traditional Japanese dojos have what I'll call a misplaced confidence in the utility & effectivenss of idealized techniques without the inconvenience of actually having tested them out in reality (or something close to it). This was my experience with Aikido as well.
It's why I'm reluctant to recommend batto even though I enjoy it: What's there is pretty good, but something in me is like, Where's the rest of it?
Absolutely correct. Techniques that are not pressure-tested against a resistant opponent become stagnant. You can become good at a technique. But will you be good at fighting? That's something which you will never know without actual sparring. Even with sparring, there are limitations and rules. For example, this is one of the best examples of actual kenjutsu applications on YouTube: Missing, however, are strikes against the legs. Also missing is GRAPPLING. There are still some schools like TennenRishin that incorporate judo and jiu-jitsu upon getting into close tsubazeriai range. Gekkiken. But I can't travel to Japan any day soon to learn. There ARE some places that are trying to innovate, with classical kenjutsu + MMA style grappling mixed in (with students and instructors of diverse backgrounds including Kali and BJJ, but with a passion and focus on JSA). But you gotta do some digging to find them. Almost without exception, such schools and groups will be mocked by the purist JSA crowd, who only practice their way of solo kata and kumitachi; who will prattle endlessly about lineage and authenticity and call anything else outside of their bubble "fake" and "wrong." "Weaponism", one of my favorite channels. 😊 I love how they explore different match-ups like "Kendo vs Two-handed Flail" (with some playful grappling in the mix ^^), Spear vs swords (Spear Guy has crazy skills though), "Kendo vs Hammer and Shield" ("Captain America is stronger than Thor" 🤣)...they even made Wolverine claws...😁
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Post by naue on May 30, 2022 14:58:54 GMT
As with just about any traditional martial art, I feel like any JSA is only really "practical" if it's learned in combination with other things.
Many people do both iaido and kendo to cover both bases of form and some degree of sparring.
About the weaponism video just posted: apparently both of them are kendoka with no background in kenjutsu at all. That means that what we see is basically their adaptation of kendo into kenjutsu with bokken.
If you had to only pick one art to practice, Toyama Ryu seems a decent option since it has some forms, lots of cutting, and in some cases lots of sparring too:
And then there's this...sparring with bokken with a nice tackle too:
I think the kanji reads "Kami-kage ryu?" Not sure if it's a koryu or something modern.
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Post by bokuto on May 30, 2022 16:07:38 GMT
I would also support toyama ryu in terms of pure practicality for cutting. If nothing else, most toyama dojos provide ample opportunity to get cutting practice and they keep things grounded. Even if I wanted to be fickle and talk about how it's not as complex in certain areas, I will always be humbled watching those in toyama-ryu cutting tatami far better than I am able to. Excellent form and cutting technique.
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