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Post by brotherbanzai on Sept 29, 2008 21:04:33 GMT
Canderson's supercool looking railroad spike knife got thinking that I might like to try one myself. There is a defunct RR track not far from where I live so I went looking and found a couple of spikes. These things are tiny! Are they all this small? I looked around online for some info on them and according to the various manufacturers sites, 6" seems to be about the longest. I always thought they were bigger. Also, according to the info I was able to find from those manufactures, the spikes that are marked HC for high carbon are only 30 point !? That would be like 1030 steel and wouldn't even be hardenable. What am I missing here? Are there longer spikes out there and with a higher carbon content?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2008 2:56:33 GMT
nope they are small and low on carbon. i only use them because they are free and great for practice.
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Post by 293master293 on Sept 30, 2008 5:13:43 GMT
I have heard that if you put water, a lot of ice, and a considerable amount of salt, these can harden quite nicely. Weird, the RR spikes near here are longer, and a lot thicker than yours.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2008 6:38:09 GMT
Thanks for the compliment =). That's about the size of the rail road spikes I used. If you look at my 'first knife' post, I've got a picture of a spike next to the knife. If I recall the knife is like 9" overall length to give you some perspective. It does however look like yours has rotted away some. Just a FYI on the hardness thing. I've read everything from .03% carbon to .06%. I've heard older spikes had a good bit more carbon in them as well...probably up to .045/.05% or so. The truth??? No clue. I know my first HC spike didn't harden for crap (my wife dropped it and bent the tip lol...she nearly cried since it was my first knife). The second I heat treated tonight and it's already showing a distinct hamon even in the file stages...which means it at least hardened. Actually it hardened well. I made a newbie mistake in my rush to heat treat the thing and left the edge about the thickness of a dime. BIG mistake. I've been draw filing on it for an hour and a half and have about halved the thickness lol. It's definitely hard. Here's a couple pictures from just now (excuse the crappy cell phone). As you see they're (at least some of them) definitely hardenable as there's a definite hamon there. That's still hard after shaving about half the thickness of a dime off of the edge...so it's not just a layer on the skin either. However...keep in mind both my spikes were stamped HC...which pretty much says it all. One hardened, the other didn't. Might as well work with rebar =). Just in case you try though, I used Dan's recipe of salt, water, ice, and dawn dish soap. My mix is pretty old (I mixed it for my first knife) and still hardened this one handily. Anyhow, hope that helps! I'm not sure what's up with my order of steel from Admiral...but tomorrow I'm going down to pick up some coil springs from the scrap yard. 4x truck springs are nice and thick...and you can make like a dozen GOOD knives out of them for $.85 a pound. Cris
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2008 12:45:42 GMT
Thanks for the compliment =). That's about the size of the rail road spikes I used. If you look at my 'first knife' post, I've got a picture of a spike next to the knife. If I recall the knife is like 9" overall length to give you some perspective. It does however look like yours has rotted away some. Just a FYI on the hardness thing. I've read everything from .03% carbon to .06%. I've heard older spikes had a good bit more carbon in them as well...probably up to .045/.05% or so. The truth??? No clue. I know my first HC spike didn't harden for crap (my wife dropped it and bent the tip lol...she nearly cried since it was my first knife). The second I heat treated tonight and it's already showing a distinct hamon even in the file stages...which means it at least hardened. Actually it hardened well. I made a newbie mistake in my rush to heat treat the thing and left the edge about the thickness of a dime. BIG mistake. I've been draw filing on it for an hour and a half and have about halved the thickness lol. It's definitely hard. Here's a couple pictures from just now (excuse the crappy cell phone). As you see they're (at least some of them) definitely hardenable as there's a definite hamon there. That's still hard after shaving about half the thickness of a dime off of the edge...so it's not just a layer on the skin either. However...keep in mind both my spikes were stamped HC...which pretty much says it all. One hardened, the other didn't. Might as well work with rebar =). Just in case you try though, I used Dan's recipe of salt, water, ice, and dawn dish soap. My mix is pretty old (I mixed it for my first knife) and still hardened this one handily. Anyhow, hope that helps! I'm not sure what's up with my order of steel from Admiral...but tomorrow I'm going down to pick up some coil springs from the scrap yard. 4x truck springs are nice and thick...and you can make like a dozen GOOD knives out of them for $.85 a pound. Cris Cris, where are you getting the info that spikes are from .30 to .60? Where did you hear older spikes had more carbon? A hamon does not always mean hard steel, IE Martensite, What you could be showing might be fine pearlite due to the cooling curve on a TTT diagram for such a low carbon steel being so far over that it would be impossible to miss forming pearlite. Yes, fine pearlite and rough pearlite will show a distinct difference, if you look at a hamon on most high carbon steels when polished, there is a white band which then seems to clear up as you go from the spine to the edge. The white band(among other things) is mostly fine pearlite, because it cooled fast but not faste enough to form martensite. The spine however remains rough pearlite. Do you have much clarity or is the hamon that is formed on the spike knives very misty and unclear? Probably because it is only 1/2 a hamon, the misty upper part.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2008 13:53:12 GMT
Cris, where are you getting the info that spikes are from .30 to .60? Where did you hear older spikes had more carbon? A hamon does not always mean hard steel, IE Martensite, What you could be showing might be fine pearlite due to the cooling curve on a TTT diagram for such a low carbon steel being so far over that it would be impossible to miss forming pearlite. Yes, fine pearlite and rough pearlite will show a distinct difference, if you look at a hamon on most high carbon steels when polished, there is a white band which then seems to clear up as you go from the spine to the edge. The white band(among other things) is mostly fine pearlite, because it cooled fast but not faste enough to form martensite. The spine however remains rough pearlite. Do you have much clarity or is the hamon that is formed on the spike knives very misty and unclear? Probably because it is only 1/2 a hamon, the misty upper part. What I was saying Sam is that the net says they're all over the place in carbon. There's a guy on Ebay saying it's 60pts, and then other sites saying 30 points of carbon. My meaning was that none or all could be right. I'd tend to think they're along the lower scale. I wasn't saying they actually are 30 to 60 points of carbon =). About the older spikes having more carbon...Dan is the one who said that on this site I believe? As for whether this knife is fine pearlite or martensite...to be honest I'm not experienced enough to know. I know this knife is about...literally...20x harder than the last knife. Realize those pictures from last night are only of a knife that's in rough filing stages. I would think fine pearlite would still draw file readily wouldn't it? My file will not cut the edge material of this knife regardless of how much pressure I apply. It barely generates any heat even...but when I slide the cut towards the spine (just 1/2" from the edge even) it bites readily. Once I get the edge established (hopefully before noon....it's 7am here), I'll polish it out and we'll see how the hamon looks. Hopefully my etch job can do some justice lol. Anyhow...once I get it polished I'd be glad for you to take a look and tell me what you think. For now here's a (slightly) better picture in a bit better light: I could be completely wrong about it, as I said I have NO experience with generating my own hamon other than my previous failed attempt and now this one. But it acts like a hamon, and it's pretty damn hard =). Cris
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Post by brotherbanzai on Sept 30, 2008 18:12:20 GMT
darkslyde, they do make cool looking little knives, but not too useful if they aren't hardenable.
Master293, what part of the country do you live in? I wonder if they are different in different areas, the info I was finding indicated that 6" was the longest.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Sept 30, 2008 18:21:29 GMT
That's looking pretty good Cris. I guess it would get a little larger from hammering it out but still pretty small. The info I got indicated that the ones stamped HC were only 30pt while the ones without were even lower carbon content. But then I wonder how you could be getting a hard edge if that were the case?
Thoughts Sam? I would have though they would be fairly standardized in order to pass whatever testing is necessary for a pretty important fastener. Maybe they differ depending on how old they are, but from what I read the older ones could have more carbon but too much, more like wrought iron and so wouldn't be hardenable either. Maybe I'm confusing a few different things, been reading a lot of different stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2008 20:24:23 GMT
Well, my polishing skills still suck lol. I worked out most of the scratches and went up to 600 grit...then etched with Ferric Chloride...then hit it with 1500 grit. It's got something there. Unfortuantely I have no way of telling if it's actually a hamon, or just the ghost of one as Sam said. I've got to run to a Dr. Appt...but when I get home I'll try to do a better job, and get some better pictures for you guys to decide from. For now, here's these: Dunno? You guys tell me lol. Cris
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Post by 293master293 on Sept 30, 2008 21:37:40 GMT
darkslyde, they do make cool looking little knives, but not too useful if they aren't hardenable. Master293, what part of the country do you live in? I wonder if they are different in different areas, the info I was finding indicated that 6" was the longest. I live in eastern Washington. (the state, not the capitol) I think they are about 9"
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2008 22:53:05 GMT
darkslyde, they do make cool looking little knives, but not too useful if they aren't hardenable. Master293, what part of the country do you live in? I wonder if they are different in different areas, the info I was finding indicated that 6" was the longest. I live in eastern Washington. (the state, not the capitol) I think they are about 9" If they're larger in Washington it's probably due to the percipitation. I know that in a residential or commercial construction setting anything staked or tied into the ground is required by code to be deeper than in dryer states (like Arizona lol). It probably just gives the stake a better 'bite' and chance of holding in the wetter soil. Cris
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2008 3:26:39 GMT
Ok so I finished up the polishing (for the most part), and here are the results: So what's the verdict? Hamon or no hamon?? It looks like one to me...but I don't really have the experience to tell if it's real or something else. Cris
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2008 14:01:18 GMT
I'm saying hamon. It actually looks really nice. good job. How does the handle shape feel in the hand?
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Post by 293master293 on Oct 1, 2008 14:40:19 GMT
Precipitation? No. Western Washington has the precipitation, Eastern Washington is dryer than a bone. Thank god for the mountains, otherwise we would be wet too.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2008 18:36:47 GMT
I'm saying hamon. It actually looks really nice. good job. How does the handle shape feel in the hand? Thanks! The handle feels great actually. The balance is just slightly behind the guard as things sit...and it makes the knife feel VERY quick and agile. The curved handle imparts a feeling of control of the blade...it's sort of cool. Cris
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Post by brotherbanzai on Oct 1, 2008 23:38:36 GMT
That looks really good Cris. I could get a lot more use out of a 9" spike like Master293 has in his area but it doesn't really matter if I can't harden it. Guess I'll set this project aside and continue on with other things.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2008 1:16:29 GMT
Thanks bud, I appreciate it.
One of the reason the 6" spikes are kind of cool is you sort of have to make the most of the material. Not a lot of extra to screw up with if you know what I mean. That being said though...if I'd drawn out the material I'd left in the tangs more...it would have made the overall knife a couple inches longer. Probably up to 11" with 5"-6" of blade. As it was the tangs are 3x the width of the blade at the widest point of the spine.
The hardenability being hit and miss really does suck though. Glad I got one good one that hardened at least before I moved on to better material =).
Cris
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