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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2008 7:04:48 GMT
As long as we are talking japanese blades atleast, because Europeans had been through hardening steelfor just as long. True...so traditional doesn't quite cover it. Guess we just like hamons lol. I mean, take a look at this: I know it's a yari, but the smith could easily have drawn out a tang, and voila: Western longsword. Functionally, well...as has been said, with todays steel TH are generally stronger and more durable. But imagine the above 'sword' if it were forged as a Howard Clark style martinsite/bainite blade? Best of both worlds =). Cris So, I'm feeling a bit froggy and need something to put me in my place =). So I up and decided to make myself a leaf bladed fantasy style shortsword (with a hamon...of course lol). The reason I started forging knives was to learn the beginning processes involved in forging swords. I know I haven't learned even the first patch on forging knives yet, but this projects been bugging me for years (funny I didn't even realize it)...and even if I fail I'll learn a lot trying. Anyhow...I'd like you guys to tell me what you think of my first sword project here. I drew this out early Friday afternoon, and began creating a wood blank to test out my theories on geometry, balance, and the overall functionality of the piece (my wife thinks I'm crazy carrying around a wooden sword all weekend lol). I know it's substantially lighter than the 'real' sword will be...but the proportions are the same and I'm happy to say that the design is indeed very comfortable to hold and swing around. It's of course very fast (it weighs about 1/4lb lol) but even in steel it's going to be an agile blade. Balance point is 3.5" in front of the guard with no fittings. There are things I can do in the final piece to alter that if necessary however. This thing is likely going to have a pretty substantial tang lol. Anyhow, onto the pictures (sorry for the blurriness...not sure wth is up with this camera): Original artwork...to scale. Points of interest are the 33.5" overall length, 21.5" blade with 16.25" of cutting edge, and the 12" long grip (from pommel to guard). Width of the blade at the widest point (guard and the end of the ricasso) is 2", with the widest point of the leaf being 1 3/8". The wood version is 3/8" thick at the guard, and 1/4" thick a few inches from the point. The steel version will likely be 1/4" thick at the guard, and 3/16" where the tip begins the sharp plunge to the point. The only set in stone design queue is the overall shape, and the hamon. I'm eliminating the odd fuller section above the extended ricasso, and I'm not too positive the guard will live through the design process.Blank in wood. While working this piece I used a circular saw for the original cutout (this was a 36" 2x4 Friday night lol), hand held belt sander for the overall shaping and flattening of the blade, and files for the remainder of the shaping/edge work.A bit of a 'down the blade' view. Cross section isn't triangular...it's actually a diamond. There will be definite distal taper. Ignore the divits in the edge shape lol...unfortunately the density of a pine 2x4 is incredibly varied, unlike steel...and when draw filing the 'soft spots' just seem to disappear, leaving the more dense wood and creating dents in the profile lol.Plans are to start with piece of 1 1/2"x1/4" 1075/1080 that is approximately 30" long, and forge out my rough shape. I don't trust my forging abilities enough to bring the shape in too too close yet. Thus the starting dimensions of the steel. I'm sure I can draw it out 1/2" in width, and 3" in length, but I just don't think I'm ready to forge out a leaf blade yet lol. So a lot of this will likely be stock removal, even if it's just with a bench grinder, angle grinder, and finishing with files. It is what it is...if I can make a nice sword out of it...and still forge in my taper and such as well as the general shape, I'll be happy. So now I have a few questions for you guys. The guard on this thing is small...very small. Almost more of a bolster. That's how I wanted it. I'll likely use mild steel as the material (blued or patinated somehow). This brings me to my point though...is there any real reason not to go with a real 'full tang' construction on a sword? Meaning similar to a knife where you either wrap the tang, or add scales to fill the hand. I know 'tactical' swords get away with it a lot, but this piece is supposed to be a bit more complete than that. On this sword, there would be 12" of tang, approximately 3/4"-1" in width and 3/16"-1/4" in thickness. The tang itself would constitute the majority of the pommel (with carved pieces of mild steel being pinned on to fill out the shape), and the guard would be held on by interferance fit, or even possibly pinned as well. I'd considered a Japanese style construction of the hilt parts, but the problem there is that I don't want a very large, highly ovular grip. I want the grip to be no more than 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" wide, and perhaps 3/4" to 5/8" thick. The size tang that would be required to fit inside a grip core that size would be pretty weak I think, and very light...but I could be very wrong. My only problem then is balance. I don't really want to add a lot of weight at the pommel (12" away from the guard), as this would actually decrease performance more than having a very distant balance point somewhere up the blade. If I went with the 'full tang' style construction...I could pretty easily remove weight near the pommel in order to move my balance point forward enough to give good bite...all the while reducing the effort required to swing this thing with one wrist/arm. The idea with the long grip is to be able to use the sword with two hands easily, as well as create a 'pendelum' effect when using the sword one handed. I'm hoping this thing ends up an insane cutter =). Anyhow...any criticism will be appreciated. I've handled a few swords in my life...but never one that I consider top notch in quality. I would like my first effort at a sword to come out at least as well as my first knife did (comparitively). For that I'm definitely going to need help from people with a bit more experience than I have =). Cris
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Post by kidcasanova on Sept 29, 2008 7:51:54 GMT
That first picture..........VERY awesome. I cannot express the cool vibes I'm getting from it. Perhaps it's because I just finished watching Fellowship of the Ring, but damn this would look at home in an elf's hands.
It conveys a lot of elegance. Very cool. Karma for this.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2008 8:08:07 GMT
I just finished watching all three LoTR movies again yesterday (yep about 13-14 hours of LoTR, love those movies) and every time I watch them I see all the types of weapons I like and would love to own, someone really needs to make an affordable copy of glamdring, gandalf is awesome especially his sword and staff work in the last movie.
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Post by kidcasanova on Sept 29, 2008 8:20:54 GMT
Agreed. I'd like to see this made as well, as close to this wooden blank as possible. If it were made affordable (I could live without the DH), then I'd mightily consider picking up something of the sort.
Wish someone would post a review of that Museum Replica Glamdring that UC made.....
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2008 15:38:54 GMT
Thanks for the vote of confidence guys, I appreciate it =).
When drawing this on paper Friday, I wasn't thinking Lord of the Rings lol. I haven't seen those movies in years. After looking up 'LOTR Sword' on Google Images...I can see definite design parallels. In particular, the pommel. I've never been a big fan of huge circular pommels, or the large 'scentstopper' types either. What I was trying to do with this pommel is make something smaller, elegant, different (guess that didn't work lol), and yet still functional. Turns out that it looks just like the LOTR pommels =/. I'll have to see what I can do to keep a similar design...while still changing things enough to not appear a direct copy.
I do think the rest of the blade is relatively original. The leaf blade/pommel I guess would be similar to 'Glamdring'....but this is in fact a short sword. The extended ricasso, short blade/cutting edge, and oversized hilt are things I've never really seen in combination on a double edged sword before. In searching about I've found it's also a bit reminiscent of a cross between the Father's Sword and the Atlantean from the Conan movies lol, with a long hilt thrown into the bargain. I guess after thousands of years of historical swords, and a few serious decades of movie swords (not to mention video games!)...it's going to be difficult to produce something totally new that is both visually appealing, and functional as well eh?
Anyhow, I think I have the hilt design worked out. The guard will slide on over the tang/pommel piece, and will be a press type fit...while the pommel itself will be a 3 piece sandwich design utilizing the tang as the center. I'm definitely considering blueing the guard and pommel...as well as possibly the 'carved' edges of the ricasso (basically you blue the ricasso then polish the 'blade' portion of it). Not really sure on that...it'll come to me as the piece comes together I suppose =).
Kidcasanova...what would you consider 'affordable' for something like this? I mean, this blade, being my first...wouldn't be for sale. But if it works out and is of a level of quality that I feel is acceptable, I'd be willing to make something 'similar' or more to someone elses design specifications. I also need to see just exactly how much work is going to go into this thing lol. I mean, I've got a full weekend on a wooden blade blank with no furniture!
Anyway guys thanks again for the interest. Hopefully I end up being able to give you all a progress report later in the week.
Cris
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Post by kidcasanova on Sept 29, 2008 20:39:10 GMT
Depends on the product, I suppose. I dont think this is a "LOTR ripoff" or anything of the sort, and what I meant definitely wasnt an insult. I just find it very elegant, like something an elf would use.
Honestly, I'd stick with that design regardless of what it resembles. It's original and it kicks ass.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2008 21:46:05 GMT
Depends on the product, I suppose. I dont think this is a "LOTR ripoff" or anything of the sort, and what I meant definitely wasnt an insult. I just find it very elegant, like something an elf would use. Honestly, I'd stick with that design regardless of what it resembles. It's original and it kicks ass. No worries...I didn't take it as an insult =). Hell, if I could pull off making ANY of the LoTR swords...I'd consider myself rather accomplished lol...they're all quite beautiful! As it is...I will likely leave this design mostly alone and go with it. The pommel system was intended to be smooth polished, with maybe some decorative file work to set it off (not faceted like the LoTR pieces). I'd also considered some vine style file work on the edges of the ricasso as well. Something angular and aggressive, yet graceful like the blade to tie everything in. I've got my work cut out for me lol. Guess I should wait for a successful construction and heat treat before getting that far ahead of myself! Cris
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2008 6:06:47 GMT
Well, I got the guard roughed in tonight. It's thick...but everything is thicker due to the fact that it's wood. I actually had to make the guard twice, due to the fact that the first one was thinner and cracked lol. I'm going to sand off the 'facets' and just leave the general shape in the guard and go for it. Anyhow, here's the pictures: Blade with guard attached. On the steel version, I'll probably make the 'wings' of the guard more prominent, but not by much. Mostly thicker is all, closer to the original design.Closer pic. Here you can see what I mean about how thin the arms of the guard are. You can also see that I am NO woodworker. The guard started life as a 2.5" long piece of 2x4. I fashioned it just like you would a piece of steel. That's the purpose of making this sword in wood first...to test my ideas for construction and see if they'll work in an easily replaceable medium. So far so good =).Side view.Looks pretty crappy here lol...but remember it's just a test piece(although the wife is considering using it as a Halloween prop when I'm done lol).Blurry edge profile. You can see definite distal taper here. It will be just about that pronounced on the steel version...just thinner overall. This starts from 3/8 and goes to 1/4, the production version is going to go from a little less than 1/4 to about 1/8 or 3/16. I'll get a better feel as I'm forging it out I'm sure. Picture of the guard. You can see how I hollowed it out with a drill press. Kinda cool that it was a solid chunk of 2x4 at the start of the evening lol.Anyhow that's it for now. I'm debating constructing the pommel in the same manner and peening it on (on the steel version)...or just doing the whole sandwich thing as I'd planned originally. Maybe one of you guys with more sword building experience can let me know your opinions lol. Thanks for looking! Cris
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2008 21:46:12 GMT
Well...I did a tiny bit of work to the pommel/guard section. This was a REALLY quick overlay in Photoshop. Basically the fittings will be cold rust blackened. This leaves a VERY uniform, very black layer that when oiled looks very much like obsidian. The 'lighter' grey parts in the drawing are dividing lines and artwork...and will be etched to approximately 1mm or slightly more deep, then polished out to offset the black. The 'CJA' symbol has been my signature in artwork etc since I was in school...and is here mostly for filler. Runes are over done on most fantasy swords in my opinion, and since this is my personal sword made for me...putting my initials on it in such a blatant manner isn't too very presumptious lol. That is also my blacksmith maker's mark as well. The only thing I'm not sure about are the little 'rings' around the top of the pommel and bottom of the guard with the initials. They just sort of got stuck there as a test. Anyhow, here's a picture: Let me know what you think! ~Edit One other thing I forgot to mention is that with this type of rough painted in sketch you can't see some of the planes and angles. On the pommel for instance...that little crown/dip on the grip side begins a parting ridge that goes halfway down the pommel before fading into the ovular curve of the remainder. The same on the grip. You can't see the compound curves that bring it all together. C
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2008 7:10:06 GMT
Ok another Photoshop piece. This is VERY large so be warned if you click the thumbnails. Basically we have two choices, bare blade or leather wrapped blade. I considered doing the same 'jump ring' wrap on this sword as on my second knife, only in black and silver...so if you remember that picture that on the grip and blade. Click to enlarge, then click again for full size.I also considered mimicking the guard on my uncle's dagger design, and just bringing the leaf blade out of it. That may be the way I go...it's a pretty clean design. Maybe would just need the arms thinned up a bit. Whatcha think? Cris
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Post by kidcasanova on Oct 19, 2008 18:57:48 GMT
I really like Leafblade2, without the leather ricasso. You could make the leaf blade less noticeable, if it didnt appeal aesthetically as it is. The first mock-up you did has a much less pronounced leaf shape to it, the waist isn't as thin. Perhaps a change like that would help? Just throwing suggestions out.
overall, it's a very nice design.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2008 19:57:35 GMT
I really like Leafblade2, without the leather ricasso. You could make the leaf blade less noticeable, if it didnt appeal aesthetically as it is. The first mock-up you did has a much less pronounced leaf shape to it, the waist isn't as thin. Perhaps a change like that would help? Just throwing suggestions out. overall, it's a very nice design. Actually I created a 'digital graph paper' of sorts that's 48" long, and...I think 8" wide. The scale of the sword in those two drawings was taken directly off my wooden blank. I think the leaf looks so much stronger because the actual size of the picture on your monitor (mine too). It's actually larger than the real sword lol. If you take the picture and save it, then scale the widest point on the ricasso (right next to the guard) to 2" with a ruler on your screen, that's the actual size of the sword. Should be something like 33" long or so as well. Anyhow...as soon as I finish this dagger, and order some material from Aldo, I'm going to start this. I think starting with a 30"x1 1/2"x1/4" blank of Aldo 1084, then beating it to 33"x2"(plus the leaf shape)x1/4-3/16" will be easier by far than trying to beat a good blank out of the 1060 rail clips...then turn it into a sword. Another thing...on the 'leafblade 2' I considered some kind of design on the ricasso...where the leather goes on the first version. You can see in my first drawings some of what I mean, as well as the second black paint ones. I'm still debating whether I should do something like that. I think a 'clean' blade will be far easier...but I like the appearance of the short blade with what appears to be something of an extended guard. Sort of reminiscent of the Father's sword if you know what I mean...but a lot more slender. All in all I think I have a good base to start with though. Can't wait to begin it =). Cris
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2008 2:11:53 GMT
Well I went back and looked again at the blade proportions. Everything was the same until it got to the tip. My last drawings basically stayed too fat for too long after the final 'swell'...so I took a bit of time and corrected it, as well as coming up with what I think is the final design for the guard. The pictures are below. I tried to resize them to be 2" across the widest point at the ricasso on my screen...your mileage may vary lol. Basically anything 'black' or a very dark grey will be cold rust blackened, and oiled. The effect of this is nearly an obsidian like smooth gloss black. Anything that appears to be inset will be salt etched. On the silver sword that means the inside of the guards and the center of the guard will be salt etched then blackened...on the black sword they'll be salt etched then polished. I'm going to test my salt etching setup this week to see just how deep I can etch with it. All I really need is a mm or two. Click to enlarge then click again to see full size.If I can succeed making one lol, I'll decide which color I'll do the furniture first. No sense planning the finish until the blade is done! Cris
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2008 22:38:15 GMT
Well I managed to make a couple 3d renders. Not as realistic as I'd like in terms of gloss, lighting, etc...but I'm still working on that aspect of the whole 3d thing. The sword was surprisingly easy to make in Rhino...although I still don't have even that much ironed out completely lol. It appears there's a bunch of messed up vertices or edges or some such that don't show up on my screen, but won't let me unfold it in order to texture map it. Even getting this much done was interesting to say the least. I rendered it in Poser 7...which is the only program that doesn't seem to care about the errors lol. Here they are: As designed, and rendered in Rhino.Rendered in Poser with my gimped in texture map...you can even see the hamon.Closeup rendered in Poser...with a bit different lighting (more blues).The 3D stuff is fun. I can make a blade to exact measurements and do just about everything I could to it in real life except hold it lol. Any angle, any material, any textures...all can be applied once you learn how. Pretty neat stuff =D. Cris
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