Yagoro
Member
Ikkyu in Kendo and Kenjutsu Practitioner
Posts: 1,577
|
Post by Yagoro on Apr 19, 2022 14:26:31 GMT
What features do you guys think are the most common for production blades to execute poorly? For me, I notice that alot of tsuka aren't shaped properly (hanwei specifically does this badly), and a lot of times the blades themselves do not have enough distal taper.
|
|
|
Post by haon on Apr 19, 2022 16:16:28 GMT
Disclaimer: I've had only three production swords so far, but their are what I noticed. Nevertheless, most don't make the sword less functional
Exactly what you said, I'd like to add niku, a genuine yokote, termination of the hamachi (from what I've seen, mostly the mune ends lower than the ha, so that the ha isn't actually inside the habaki, but exactly above it). Also, finish of the nakago. What I've seen, many bo-hi don't have a end at the kissaki which follows the shinogi-ji, but rather just "run out", and have bumps inside the actual hi.
|
|
|
Post by swordfriend on Apr 19, 2022 17:18:24 GMT
Not the blade per se, but affecting the blade nonetheless: poor saya fit.
Imagine spending serious $$$ on a sword that has a blade that is so nice on pictures, and recieving the blade all scuffed up by serious saya rattle.
|
|
|
Post by vidar on Apr 19, 2022 18:00:20 GMT
What disturbs me most is poorly fitting tsuka or habaki. And the fact that some forges spend effort on useless features like Kobuse lamination meanwhile the basics are wrong.
|
|
|
Post by Drunk Merchant on Apr 19, 2022 19:03:59 GMT
Poor geometry be it secondary bevels, misshapen shinogi, kisaki, or absence of niku rank first. If it isn’t shaped right it can’t cut. Lesser problems are “Damascus” pattern welded appearance since not only does that not look like hada but they’re also stress failure points. Also acid enhanced hamon, a lot of swords with a weak hamon get FeCl3 dipped, that makes the hamon look painted on which isn’t a good look and pits the sword because it etches steel and leaves chlorine inside that will cause rust. Many fairly cheap swords can avoid all of these pitfalls and so I’ll always dodge them when shopping.
|
|
|
Post by Cottontail Customs on Apr 19, 2022 23:10:35 GMT
Above all, the tsuka. if I were to list every detail that falls short of a priceless nihonto, I'd be here all day. accepting that we're talking about affordable production swords, I would focus on the tsuka first and foremost. I've seen countless skilled and unskilled users cut all kinds of targets well enough or even as well as with much higher priced swords so for the most part, the blades are functional. production saya are basically just there to keep the blade from being damaged when not used so don't expect a lot there. having said that, Hanwei does a better saya lacquer job than any other mass producing manufacturer, imo.
tsuka work has always been far behind blade work, imho. shaping, materials used, quality of craftsmanship and fittings are typically all disposable. most cores come cracked due to improper fit to the nakago and hammer-fisted assembly techniques and because the cores are slathered with oil and dirt on the inside, it's nearly impossible to glue/repair them safely since it will prevent the glue from adhering. I've seen horrors under the ito that made me cringe big time and to think, this is what's holding that giant razor blade in your hands...
only recently I've seen a couple of makers improve on their tsuka work but in general, these issues still go mostly unchanged. I would especially avoid full wrap samegawa "upgrades" from most dfc sellers. they don't know how to do it properly and they will likely wind up weakening the overall structural integrity of the tsuka, which is already pretty bad as it is. and besides, they almost always come out looking horribly bloated and misshapen and they even use patched together scrap pieces in some cases instead of one full piece.
tsukamaki is very poorly done most of the time. it can be unsightly, which again is just an aesthetic issue really but so many come incredibly loose too. obviously, this can be very dangerous. end knots on the wrong sides is almost as common as finding them on the correct sides. these days, if your production tsuka ito is tight, it's as good as it gets, looking decent is only a huge bonus. funny enough, ensuring the knots come out on the correct sides is one of the easiest things to do so either no one cares or they just don't know the easy trick to it.
sticky gooey double sided tape is used in place of kusune to secure the ito and this can heat up and shift or dry out and disintegrate in a short time, or both. this tape is also used to hold samegawa panels in place, which given some time and loose ito, won't hold it for long. I've touched 100 year old kusune and it was still tacky. amazing! one of the worst things is to have your samegawa panels laid on top of the core instead of inset. when the glue/tape gives, those panels will slide and shift under the ito. at least insetting them into channels will prevent them from moving side to side. it also prevents the boxy, ugly edges you see under the ito on some tsuka. if your tsuka is super boxy looking on the omote and ura, you likely have panels that were glued on top of the core.
another part that I pay a lot of attention to and can use a lot of improvement is the habaki fit. most have unsightly gaps at the top, which not only look ugly but will easily allow fluids and debris to slip under and later rust your blade. having the ha-machi rest in a notch is yesterday's look, so I tend to look for those properly inset instead of hanging out in the breeze. the blades are also often twisted in the habaki, causing the ha-machi to be at the far left or right instead of center. the mune machi is also jutting out on most examples instead of being slightly inset behind the notch walls. some of these are aesthetic issues but some could wind up being functional ones too. and unlike most other fittings, the habaki is not always so easy to swap out. different fit, different height, different shape and this can lead to the rest of the parts not fitting as they should when changed out for an "aftermarket" habaki.
even on swords where the blade is simply stunning, beautiful geometry, polish, hamon, even hada, the tsuka will often look like a synthetic silk turd. Simon Lee's swords come to mind. fantastic blades, horrendous tsuka and fittings. I was told by the owner of KC years ago that the craftspeople making production katana always treated the tsuka as an afterthought. they would focus on making decent and dependable blades but when it came to the furniture and fittings, it was like whatever, just throw it together and hope it lasts until it's shipped. I really appreciated their focus on all parts but it was only something they could do in small batch production, not so much with the big numbers.
|
|
|
Post by porkchopexpress on Apr 20, 2022 0:35:40 GMT
Cottontail, thank you for taking the time to write such a well informed and thoughtful reply, that was an interesting read
|
|
|
Post by vidar on Apr 23, 2022 5:53:36 GMT
@cottontail, thanks for the enlightening post. From your experience, which forges do generally do best when it comes to tsuka assembly?
|
|
|
Post by MichaelRS on Apr 23, 2022 8:02:42 GMT
My production Katanas kinda remind me of an old girlfriend I once had who had a glass eye, a hunchback and a peg leg.
When people used to tell me, mostly in roundabout ways, that she wasn't exactly Miss America I could only agree and respond with...
"Yeah, she ain't perfect, but she's mine.
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Apr 23, 2022 16:14:31 GMT
What features do you guys think are the most common for production blades to execute poorly? IMHO, all the features that you can replace or modify by yourself without a forge, if you cultivate the skills to do so. As long as the blade geometry isn't too far off, and the heat treat isn't fouled up, you should wind up with a decent cutter. If the hada and hamon are pretty, too, so much the better. For me, acquiring the skills just adds to the enjoyment, and makes the sword much more yours. Antique fittings almost always look better than the Longquan stuff, anyway, and buying those adds an extra dimension to your collecting.
|
|
|
Post by Drunk Merchant on Apr 23, 2022 18:12:46 GMT
Agreed And the corollary to that is you can easily upscale swords with cheap fittings and good geometry/heat treatment by using spare fittings (probably gonna try that with Z-sey 1095) but if they give you a sword with serious defects in shape and heat treatment there’s nothing you can do to fix it. Weirdly enough that means many production swords can outdo sloppily made customs: Case in point this Stefan Roth made blade has expensive silver fittings (even if some like tsuka aren’t shaped right) but it’s got very poor heat treatment, geometry (instead of making a proper o-kissaki he arbitrarily placed Yokote way back, shinogi, niku) and Damascus hada. It’s cost: mid $$$$. Meanwhile many much cheaper production swords can nail down the heat treatment and geometry, even making a proper o-kissaki for sub 1000 prices. You don’t have to lose performance on cheap either as the net is full of an infamous video of a Stefan katana exploding into tinfoil shards everywhere the moment it hit a hard object while plenty of members here have used well preforming but cost effective production swords like bugei to reenact and pass wazamono style tests like hitting pork bones and metal. Guess that’s why I’m going to see how entry level Z-sey handles. If the only compromise was to fitting cost then it might be just what’s needed. If their production smiths are experienced at making rightly made blades they might just be able to make a no nonsense good sword.
|
|
|
Post by Cottontail Customs on Apr 23, 2022 18:28:39 GMT
@cottontail, thanks for the enlightening post. From your experience, which forges do generally do best when it comes to tsuka assembly? keep in mind my opinions are influenced by what would work best for customizing, not necessarily from a user/practitioner viewpoint. I find minimum issues with most Huawei tsuka, especially the more recent ones. they are crafted well from good materials and seem to be made specifically for the particular blade and fittings it adorns. there is still work I need to do to get it to my standards but much less than most others in the same price range and above. they take care to get the profile shaping done as well as possible, without having to glue on a mess of shims, the wood is clean and free of rot, knots and sugar deposits, the fit is typically very snug without needing a sledge hammer to remove and there isn't a pound of sawdust and metal shavings that pour out when removed. far from perfect but closer to where I need to go than most. I will mention that the "nami" fuchi Huawei often uses was (or still is) sized a bit smaller than most production and aftermarket fuchi and could cause issues when trying to swap this part out. Feilong Swords have very well shaped and well made cores. they're slim but not too skinny, have a nice fit, are rarely cracked and are easy to remove and replace. a good foundation for most of the work I do in preparation to rewrap and I find them to be very consistent from tsuka to tsuka, unlike the swords from most drop-down menu sellers, which could come from multiple makers and you never know what you'll get from one to another. it's one of the things that attracted me to this brand in the first place, that and a superb habaki fit. Motohara. this might not belong in this list since they are certainly not the typical production sword but they have been a pleasure to work with so far. the craftsmen of this brand know what they're doing for most of the details and definitely produce a core that can last a long time and go through many outfit changes if wanted or needed. no scary surprises under the hood that I've seen so far. Citadel makes a nicely shaped core but again, they aren't typical production. and again, smaller batch production usually equals better quality work. Kaneie/Kurin made a decent core but I don't know if they're still up and running. I also love working with most Japanese made iaito tsuka. although the construction differs from that of shinken, most are made out of quality materials and are made by skilled craftspeople. there are also a few models of Hanwei katana that have decently shaped tsuka. there is still the chance you'll have one with some wood rot or knots and they tend to use a very hard and splintery wood which can be difficult to work with but at least these are shaped to be much more comfortable than the typical chunky and stick straight "axe handles". I think the Shinto and Musashi were among those that were better shaped. Hanwei also often uses very large fittings on their large tsuka so if looking to swap these out for other fittings, you may need to make more adjustments than usual to the core to do so. I'm probably forgetting some brands but if I remember, I'll add them later. and no, I won't name specific names of those brands I wouldn't suggest as that's never turned out well for me in this forum. sometimes being nice overrides being honest.
|
|
|
Post by Drunk Merchant on Apr 23, 2022 19:04:24 GMT
Sadly Kurin is gone but both their blade and fittings were quite good. It’s a shame they’re gone since they might be the best sub1k$ I’ve owned.
|
|
|
Post by vidar on Apr 23, 2022 19:23:51 GMT
Exactly, Kurin made great swords but they no longer exist. There was a post here on the forum about it, like a year ago. Apparently the forge stopped and their craftsmen left.
About Feilong, are they still in business? I used to own a Higo katana but sold it. I regret selling it and would like to buy a new one. Furthermore I’m not sure if the Belgian distributor (Dave) is still active…
|
|
|
Post by Cottontail Customs on Apr 23, 2022 23:10:56 GMT
Exactly, Kurin made great swords but they no longer exist. There was a post here on the forum about it, like a year ago. Apparently the forge stopped and their craftsmen left. About Feilong, are they still in business? I used to own a Higo katana but sold it. I regret selling it and would like to buy a new one. Furthermore I’m not sure if the Belgian distributor (Dave) is still active… I'm really not sure about the Feilong swords, I haven't heard anything in a long time. too bad about Kurin, they were a nice alternative in the $800-$1200 range (I think some of the Hanwei run of Kaneie were even less $). at the time at least, they had the best polish you could find on a non Japanese production blade.
|
|
|
Post by haon on Apr 24, 2022 17:59:06 GMT
I also love working with most Japanese made iaito tsuka. although the construction differs from that of shinken, most are made out of quality materials and are made by skilled craftspeople.
Hey, just a quick question. In what ways do they differ from the construction of shinken? I haven't taken a iaito tsuka apart, so this might be good to know when caring for mine
|
|
|
Post by Cottontail Customs on Apr 24, 2022 19:05:51 GMT
Hey, just a quick question. In what ways do they differ from the construction of shinken? I haven't taken a iaito tsuka apart, so this might be good to know when caring for mine Most Japanese made iaito tsuka cores I've seen are made by gluing two halves of the core together but a top half and bottom half instead of left and right, as you see on most shinken. so instead of the seem in the core running along the ha and mune edges, they run down the center of the omote and ura sides. I'm thinking it's because they use router bits to carve the slots for the nakago but maybe they just use specifically shaped chisels. or both, not sure. I'm also guessing that the difference is due to the way a shinken tsuka has more force applied to the core when cutting and the iaito method wouldn't be able to handle that stress.
|
|
|
Post by Arlequin on Apr 25, 2022 5:03:04 GMT
The kissaki is usually an after thought and everyone has just kinda accepted it so theres not much incentive for the maker to put the extra effort in grinding it out properly. Secondly is if you want a blade geometry other than Shinogi Zukuri your just SOL. The few examples of others like shobu or or unokuboi can range from alright to not even resembling it at all and the manufacturer just made up their own version lol
|
|
|
Post by haon on Apr 25, 2022 7:19:34 GMT
Hey, just a quick question. In what ways do they differ from the construction of shinken? I haven't taken a iaito tsuka apart, so this might be good to know when caring for mine Most Japanese made iaito tsuka cores I've seen are made by gluing two halves of the core together but a top half and bottom half instead of left and right, as you see on most shinken. so instead of the seem in the core running along the ha and mune edges, they run down the center of the omote and ura sides. I'm thinking it's because they use router bits to carve the slots for the nakago but maybe they just use specifically shaped chisels. or both, not sure. I'm also guessing that the difference is due to the way a shinken tsuka has more force applied to the core when cutting and the iaito method wouldn't be able to handle that stress. Thank you very much, that makes sense.
|
|
|
Post by bradc on Apr 25, 2022 15:39:25 GMT
Most Japanese made iaito tsuka cores I've seen are made by gluing two halves of the core together but a top half and bottom half instead of left and right, as you see on most shinken. so instead of the seem in the core running along the ha and mune edges, they run down the center of the omote and ura sides. Interesting. What brands have you seen that on? I have seen the more traditional style on the couple I have taken apart (i.e. far fewer than you have disassembled)
|
|