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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2008 23:02:32 GMT
Hello, I was wondering if anyone can tell me what the chances are of getting a "lemon" when you buy a sword from generation 2 or Darksword? Or Hanwei? What about Albion? Those are the four swordmakers I'm looking at. I've heard good things about them, but I've still seen pictures of what happens when people get lemons (and of the exact swords that I've heard good things about and I'm considering). It's understandable that these things happen from time to time, they are made by people, but can anyone give me an approximate idea of if its "rare" or "not uncommon" or if you could guess like 1 or 2% or whatever. I'd appreciate it. I was thinking about the DSA Viking, the Gen 2 Crusader, Hanwei Hand & Half, Hanwei Bastard, and Albion Squire Line Bastard. Thanks! logan ![:)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by kidcasanova on Sept 25, 2008 23:09:27 GMT
Quality control with the bigger companies is typically really good. We hear about a few lemons here and there, but it's a small percentage. They just stick in our mind more because it's uncommon. Not to mention if you get a lemon, you should absolutely be able to get a replacement. I would think Albion has the least amount of lemons reach customers (I have never heard of one, to be honest) as you pay a premium price for good QC, the research, etc.. The other brands are made overseas, so quality control isnt right here in their hands and a few lemons do get through.
I'd say you have the least chance of getting a lemon with Albion, but it shouldn't deter you from buying from one of the other brands.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2008 1:05:47 GMT
I would slim down to Albion and Hanwei right away, only because I know and trust them, I do not know darksword or Gen2, though have not heard enough good or bad to send my money (if I still bought swords:D) to either Gen2 or Darksword. Though if either of them was the one in that video someone posted awhile ago of some semprini attacking a computer, then I would NOT be spending my money with them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2008 1:14:09 GMT
There are a couple sword manufacturers I believe are "Lemon" prone, if you want to call it that. I would suggest doing a search using their names and see how many "complaint" posts come up. Look for patterns or similar concerns repeating themselves. I won't mention the names of the ones I am leary of, but I will comment on Albion.
I received an Albion "Lemon", but it was way back in their early history and the steps they took to prevent a future occurrence was nothing short of amazing. They went way above and beyond what anyone would have expected to make it up to me, and then kept me informed as to the changes they implemented in their processes and procedures to correct and prevent the problem. When I say they, I mean the "Owner". He was in repeated contact with me to take care of the situation and make sure their reputation was not damaged.
Needless to say I bought many more swords from them, and they were all beautifully made.
Albion proved themselves to be a very "pro-active" company when it comes to the quality of their products. When a company adopts an attitude like that, they can only get better and be more successful. Anyone can just replace a bad one, (which is what many are satisfied to do), but how about the delay to the customer and the trouble involved. Albion was not satisfied to just replace and occasional bad sword. Their desire was to make them right the first time to the best of their ability, ..... and they do.
Yes, there are a couple sword manufacturers I steer away from due to the fact that I have seen their name repeatedly in may postings regarding complaints or concerns. Oh sure, they replace their faulty products, but that is the extent of their commitment to higher quality. In my opinion they are just pushing production and playing the numbers game, using "low profit margins" and better quality being "too expensive" as convenient excuses. Baloney! With 27 years in hands on manufacturing quality control experience I know a little about the "Cost" of poor quality and the unquestionable profit benefits of a pro-active quality program, (yes even in small operations). It's all a numbers game they are playing, and it's all well and good unless you happen to be one of the unfortunates who gets a bad one. I personally expect more than that, even when just spending $300 or less. Albion showed what a small operation could do with a solid commitment to making a quality product. The others can do it too, ..... they just choose not to.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2008 12:10:16 GMT
Any company can produce a lemon. One of the nice things about SBGs list of vendors is that it really helps guide you to reputable vendors that don't dish out as much junk and with great customer service that will fix most problems. Beyond that, I don't think its fair to compare swords being sold for >$1000 to swords going for around $250. Other than being pointy pieces of steel, they aren't really the same things at all - they aren't trying to be. I would expect the quality to be different. It might also be reasonable to expect more individual variation between copies of the exact same sword at the lower price end, as well. Tooling marks, scratches, pommels not perfectly in line, what not. I don't expect a company to put as much time and effort into quality control on a less expensive sword as on an expensive one. I guess all I mean is that I would expect and accept a wider range of variation in a cheap sword over an expensive one. But when that variation goes so far as to make the sword a "lemon", well...I guess that may also be something of a personal call.
My own recent experience with DSA (there is a thread for it down in the review section) was a good example. I got a sword that seemed like it wasn't up to snuff. DSA went out of their way to make it right. The email exchanges were fast, professional, and personable. I certainly felt like I was talking to the guys who actually make the swords, not some customer service rep at some desk with a bunch of canned responses. I got an international phone call from the owner for heaven's sake! All that for a $259 sword. I would buy from them again exactly because I think they are producing quality at their price point, with outstanding customer support to go with it. No, they aren't Albion, nor are they trying to be.
Now... if I had a couple of hundred dollars more to spend, those squire lines are looking pretty sweet... ;D
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2008 13:55:38 GMT
Thanks, I appreciate the comments. I was hoping to not have to go all the way up to Albion for a good sword. I'm mostly interested in Darksword or Hanwei since they look a little better than Gen 2 (I don't like the leather that it looks like comes on Gen 2s, though it sounds like they're tougher), but I've seen on here that they both have lemons every now and then. I think I'm leaning towards darksword given that they're customer service sounds good (and they're at least from Canada, it's almost but not quite the 51st state...). Anyway, thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2008 15:00:51 GMT
Just to add more information to your quest for knowledge on "Lemons" A school in Utah ordered eight of the Paul Chen practical hand and a half swords for a play. They used them 3 times and 3 out of the eight broke. The others that survived only to look like this. Hanwei said it was abuse and did replace the 3 broken blades but did not replace the other 5 which suffered significant damage during practice and the play (some pictures below). Just be aware that how the company reacts when there are problems is a big factor. Pictures speak a thousand words so here goes. ![](http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee151/thomasalfred/ARMSOFVALOR001.jpg) ![](http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee151/thomasalfred/ARMSOFVALOR005.jpg)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2008 15:26:57 GMT
Wow, I guess i won't be going with hanwei. Thanks for the info dude. I guess I'll probably go with DSA or Gen 2. It seems hard to find Gen 2s in stock anywhere, anyone know why? Do DSA and Gen 2s sell out pretty quick when they get stocked? If I waited till november for the DSA, would there still be any around?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2008 18:06:12 GMT
Which models were you interested in in regards to the Gen 2 or DSA.
The Gen 2's are slow to manufacturer and sell faster than they can be made. AoV does have a few G'2s in stock (Templar, Teutonic, Maintz, and a few others).
The DS still have a good number of models available, but some of the more popular ones like the Knight and Norman are out. There will be a good number available in November as DSA does a large production run.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2008 21:20:18 GMT
Just to add more information to your quest for knowledge on "Lemons" A school in Utah ordered eight of the Paul Chen practical hand and a half swords for a play. They used them 3 times and 3 out of the eight broke. The others that survived only to look like this. Hanwei said it was abuse and did replace the 3 broken blades but did not replace the other 5 which suffered significant damage during practice and the play (some pictures below). Just be aware that how the company reacts when there are problems is a big factor. Pictures speak a thousand words so here goes. I have to ask what "play" was. Because from the pictures it looks like destructive testing. I assume you mean stage combat type stuff, in which case I'm not surprised that people slamming swords together edge to edge caused such damage. If all that damage is from 3 "play sessions" then it looks like the people need some lessons on how to handle a sword. I really am curious what the actual use of the swords was, because from the pictures of the edge damage and very few scrapes on the side of the sword make it look like it was abuse. I almost wouldn't blame Hanwei if they didn't replace the swords. However, that was all based on assumptions ;D which is why that was all quite hypothetical, if by play you meant normal backward cutting type stuff, then those swords look like they are made of aluminum and shouldn't be bought. Ah well.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2008 21:41:37 GMT
I have to ask what "play" was. Because from the pictures it looks like destructive testing. I assume you mean stage combat type stuff, in which case I'm not surprised that people slamming swords together edge to edge caused such damage. If all that damage is from 3 "play sessions" then it looks like the people need some lessons on how to handle a sword. I really am curious what the actual use of the swords was, because from the pictures of the edge damage and very few scrapes on the side of the sword make it look like it was abuse. I almost wouldn't blame Hanwei if they didn't replace the swords. However, that was all based on assumptions ;D which is why that was all quite hypothetical, if by play you meant normal backward cutting type stuff, then those swords look like they are made of aluminum and shouldn't be bought. Ah well. I would be interested as well, it looks like they didn;t even blunt them first (not that just blunting a cutting sword is really the best idea anyway), and the proceeded to bang away blindly. I wonder also if they bought the swords as blunts made specifically for stage or steel to steel play, we all know (or should) that steel to steel sparring or reenactment blades are made much differently with different heat treatment than a cutting blade/sharpy, and no way should sharpies expect to standup to blade on blade even when blunted. I would not be surprised if hanwei told them to go piss off. Was the OP looking for a reenactment/sparring sword? If so I would say get a BKS/baltimore knife and sword, that will beat out all the others hands down, especially since they make swords specifically for steel to steel.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2008 22:54:24 GMT
The hanwei practical line are blunts. They are suppose to be for re-enactment and WMA training. So that amount of damage is really unaceptable...even if they did do edge on edge since re-enactment groups used edge on edge for their shows.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2008 23:40:23 GMT
no, re-enactment groups should not use edge on edge, that is not how you use a sword either in a show or not. If they were trained to use their weapons properly they would not have this abuse. Belonging to a re-enactment group myself, we have swords that we have been using for years going quite hard at it and none of them have this much damage, because we know what we are doing. Only idiots and beginners block with the edge of the blade, that is how you "weld" the edges together. If they were blocking properly then the "proof would be in the pudding." I can see exactly what they have been doing with these blades and how badly trained they are. You can't just bang one sword against another, you have to have the proper training, so this is not a good indication of quality and I am surprised that hanwei replaced any of them.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Sept 27, 2008 23:52:20 GMT
no, re-enactment groups should not use edge on edge, that is not how you use a sword either in a show or not. If they were trained to use their weapons properly they would not have this abuse. Belonging to a re-enactment group myself, we have swords that we have been using for years going quite hard at it and none of them have this much damage, because we know what we are doing. Only idiots and beginners block with the edge of the blade, that is how you "weld" the edges together. If they were blocking properly then the "proof would be in the pudding." I can see exactly what they have been doing with these blades and how badly trained they are. You can't just bang one sword against another, you have to have the proper training, so this is not a good indication of quality and I am surprised that hanwei replaced any of them. I am in 100% agreement. You buy $80 swords and then bang the edges against each other and get pissed when they get buggered... ![::)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2008 0:03:43 GMT
Well bloodwraith, some groups do edge on edge blocks because it makes the crowd go oh and ah better then "proper" blade usage. Actual combat is kinda boring to watch. And hanwei even lists how their blade is tempered and designed to minimize notching.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2008 0:56:49 GMT
They used them in theatrical combat edge to edge like you see in many movies and on stage.
The people using the swords were actors with minimal stage combat training and not swordsman or WMA practitioners.
I posted them so you could see the damage and everyone is entitled to deduce their own idea in regards to the quality based on the pictures and the description of how they were used.
The replacement blades sent have held up fine. Lemon or not Lemon that is the question.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2008 1:05:59 GMT
I understand that the question seems like a fair question but the issue here is that the bigger the company the higher the chance that a substandard product may be sent, especially in the infancy of a company. Hanwei produces a few substandard pieces here and there but considering the size of their operation it is within the bounds of normality. Gen 2 had problems back in the day but I haven't heard anything bad about them recently. Baltimore sword and knife seem to go from strength to strength and we also have one of their representatives here Matt Stagmer who is very prompt to respond and has been a valuable addition to our forum. Hanwei also has a representative here bpogue, we also have representatives from DSA and a few others, I think that depending on what sword you are after you can trust the companies that paul endorses himself and also the companies that have representatives here.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2008 2:29:12 GMT
I ending up ordering the DSA Viking. I want a longsword later, though it looks like there aren't too many places to choose from ![???](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/huh.png) From what I've read on here I think I might try to pre-order an atrim in november, though that could take who knows how long to actually get it. But if the viking ends up looking as good in person as the pictures then I might try to get the DSA gothic two hander. Either way, I'll have to wait till november now. If AoV ends up having some DSA gothics in stock around then let know dude. ;D Thanks for the info!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2008 2:31:22 GMT
Well, ultimately all else being equal your chances of getting a lemon is no worse than anyone else. you can better your odds by going through a reputable dealer. If you buy through a reputable dealer and there is something wrong, your chances of it being sorted out improve greatly. Manufacturers reputations can take a hit, as people know that the nature of making swords is that its not always going to be 100%, but a dealer dosent have that excuse and hence decent ones will do all they can to sort out a problem, if one were to arise...
If you ask they may inspect the blade before sending it out, theres a bit of debate about whether retailers should do this automatically, but I think most will if asked, if they dont already...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2008 3:32:00 GMT
AoV does a full inspection of all that we ship except for the Gen 2 swords. The Gen 2 have tight quality control from the foundry. Of course if one should slip through AoV does everything they can to make things right. ;D
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