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Post by naue on Mar 22, 2022 20:36:08 GMT
I ordered a custom length "katate-uchi" from Hanbon Forge some time ago, and overall I'm happy with what I got for what I paid.
But, not knowing better when I placed my order, I found that my tsuka was just a bit short and the balance a bit too far along the blade for my liking. So I was wondering if it is feasible to put on a larger/longer/heavier kashira instead of replacing the whole tsuka? If so I'd also appreciate any links to where I might get one.
Nagasa: 24.5 inches Tsuka: 7.6 inches
Weight: about 2 lbs Point of Balance: 5 inches from habaki
Thank you all in advance.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Mar 22, 2022 21:00:10 GMT
unless it were a very large and solid piece of metal, I don't think a kashira will add enough weight to even out the pob. 24" is a bit longer than the typical wakizashi, that would have a tsuka around this length and closer to a ko katana, which would typically have a standard length tsuka approx 10-11". and 2 lbs sounds kind of heavy for katana this length, I guess the blade is fairly beefy? overall, it sounds like it's not proportioned well for it's size. a 9-10" tsuka would probably make a world of difference.
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Post by Stef on Mar 22, 2022 21:50:04 GMT
new tsuka is the way
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Post by treeslicer on Mar 22, 2022 22:33:56 GMT
I ordered a custom length "katate-uchi" from Hanbon Forge some time ago, and overall I'm happy with what I got for what I paid.
But, not knowing better when I placed my order, I found that my tsuka was just a bit short and the balance a bit too far along the blade for my liking. So I was wondering if it is feasible to put on a larger/longer/heavier kashira instead of replacing the whole tsuka? If so I'd also appreciate any links to where I might get one.
Nagasa: 24.5 inches Tsuka: 7.6 inches
Weight: about 2 lbs Point of Balance: 5 inches from habaki
Thank you all in advance.
You are aware that katateuchi are one-handed swords, and the tsuka supplied would be period authentic, right? If you use a two-handed tsuka, you just have a short katana.
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Post by porkchopexpress on Mar 23, 2022 0:51:52 GMT
What about a beefier tsuba? Would that pull the center of balance back towards the hands?
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Post by treeslicer on Mar 23, 2022 1:45:47 GMT
What about a beefier tsuba? Would that pull the center of balance back towards the hands? Yup, it could, though it would require nakago (re-drilling the mekugi ana) and possibly habaki changes too. Shimming the nakago with lead might help, also.
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Post by naue on Mar 23, 2022 1:51:05 GMT
unless it were a very large and solid piece of metal, I don't think a kashira will add enough weight to even out the pob. 24" is a bit longer than the typical wakizashi, that would have a tsuka around this length and closer to a ko katana, which would typically have a standard length tsuka approx 10-11". and 2 lbs sounds kind of heavy for katana this length, I guess the blade is fairly beefy? overall, it sounds like it's not proportioned well for it's size. a 9-10" tsuka would probably make a world of difference.
Thank you for the reply!
Agreed, a 9'' tsuka would be ideal. When I placed the order I had no way of knowing how Hanbon would balance the sword prior to holding it. The blade is indeed quite beefy, and I wonder if ordering the sword with a bo-hi would have been wise. I ordered the tsuka length I did because my (limited) research vaguely told me that katate-uchi had shorter nakago, although I wasn't able to get a clear range of just HOW short. An excerpt from Markus Sesko's article (https://markussesko.com/2015/04/03/kantei-1-sugata-6/):
"By the late Muromachi period, the classic tachi had been pushed into the background and mostly katana were produced when it comes to long swords. They have a noticeably shorter nagasa of 60~65 cm, a slightly elongated chû-kissaki (often with a pronounced fukura), a wide mihaba which does not taper that much, a thick kasane, and a deep sakizori. Those blades with a really short nagasa of around 60 cm were made for single-handed use and are referred to as katate-uchi (片手打ち)."
As is, it feels like my sword would be a decent 2-hand cutter IF it had a longer tsuka. But getting a custom tsuka would likely cost more than the sword itself, hence my hopes a bigger kashira (even 0.5 inches would help) could solve my dilemma for an appropriate price.
I have seen some production katana with what look to be long, solid brass kashira, but I'm not sure if they're actually hollow or not or where I could get one.
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Post by naue on Mar 23, 2022 2:07:19 GMT
You are aware that katateuchi are one-handed swords, and the tsuka supplied would be period authentic, right? If you use a two-handed tsuka, you just have a short katana.
Haha, a one-handed sword WAS the intention! Swinging it around with one hand feels a bit on the blade-heavy side, but with 2-hands it feels ok - not too different from my Cheness deluxe iaito, although the hands feel a bit cramped.
Not sure about the tsuka being period authentic, considering how I was the one who decided the length of tsuka in the order. I (correctly) assumed that Hanbon would make the nakago about the same length as the tsuka, and since katate-uchi had short nakago I chose 7.5 inches as a middle ground between a nakago too long to be a katate-uchi and a blade too forward-heavy to WIELD as a katate-uchi. Naturally, I got something in between both bad sides!
As for my intended fix, part of the inspiration for this project was this listing on Nihonto (https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/31153-koto-katate-uchi-750/):
It looks like a katate-uchi with a two-hand tsuka (or at least is long enough to accommodate 2 hands)? I suppose the angle might be deceptive, but it seems like the tsuka is quite a bit longer than the nakago.
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Post by treeslicer on Mar 23, 2022 4:42:55 GMT
You are aware that katateuchi are one-handed swords, and the tsuka supplied would be period authentic, right? If you use a two-handed tsuka, you just have a short katana.
Haha, a one-handed sword WAS the intention! Swinging it around with one hand feels a bit on the blade-heavy side, but with 2-hands it feels ok - not too different from my Cheness deluxe iaito, although the hands feel a bit cramped.
Not sure about the tsuka being period authentic, considering how I was the one who decided the length of tsuka in the order. I (correctly) assumed that Hanbon would make the nakago about the same length as the tsuka, and since katate-uchi had short nakago I chose 7.5 inches as a middle ground between a nakago too long to be a katate-uchi and a blade too forward-heavy to WIELD as a katate-uchi. Naturally, I got something in between both bad sides!
As for my intended fix, part of the inspiration for this project was this listing on Nihonto (https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/31153-koto-katate-uchi-750/):
It looks like a katate-uchi with a two-hand tsuka (or at least is long enough to accommodate 2 hands)? I suppose the angle might be deceptive, but it seems like the tsuka is quite a bit longer than the nakago.
Yup. I noticed that. Originally it would have had a short tsuka. Having a tsuka considerably longer than the nakago like that, is a dangerous situation. What can happen is that leverage between the nakago end and the wood of the tsuka can cause the tsuka to break apart during a cut. Several authors, such as Nakamura, warn against using tsuka more than a couple of inches longer than the nakago, for exactly that reason.
BTW, I own 3 katate-uchi, 2 koto (one Ujimobu Ganmaku 1st. gen [1520's] and a mumei) as well as a modern reproduction, so I have a little experience with the type. All have about a 21 inch nagasa. The koto are wonderfully balanced because they have a graceful distal taper, and are much lighter and livelier than a katana. The repro is chunky (similar to the koto example that you posted the link to), and is decidedly tip heavy. It also powers through targets very forcefully, so I have no complaints about it.
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Post by naue on Mar 23, 2022 15:23:36 GMT
Yup. I noticed that. Originally it would have had a short tsuka. Having a tsuka considerably longer than the nakago like that, is a dangerous situation. What can happen is that leverage between the nakago end and the wood of the tsuka can cause the tsuka to break apart during a cut. Several authors, such as Nakamura, warn against using tsuka more than a couple of inches longer than the nakago, for exactly that reason.
BTW, I own 3 katate-uchi, 2 koto (one Ujimobu Ganmaku 1st. gen [1520's] and a mumei) as well as a modern reproduction, so I have a little experience with the type. All have about a 21 inch nagasa. The koto are wonderfully balanced because they have a graceful distal taper, and are much lighter and livelier than a katana. The repro is chunky (similar to the koto example that you posted the link to), and is decidedly tip heavy. It also powers through targets very forcefully, so I have no complaints about it.
The breaking of the excessively-long tsuka makes sense, which at least means my repro sword is full-tang and won't have that issue. I suppose if I did get a new tsuka a 9'' one wouldn't be too long to be a danger since that would only be 1.5 inches longer than the nakago. That said, I'd prefer a cheaper and easier option like a bigger kashira and just "convert" it to a short 2hand katana.
I'd love to see pictures/stats of your katate-uchi examples if you have them available.
Many thanks for your insights!
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Post by shepherd214 on Mar 24, 2022 6:51:12 GMT
Oh man, you messed up real bad having such a short tsuka with a 24 inch blade. You need another 2 to 3 inches at least to make it more comfortable. Get them to change it asap.
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Post by treeslicer on Mar 24, 2022 13:30:24 GMT
Oh man, you messed up real bad having such a short tsuka with a 24 inch blade................ Not for a katateuchi. You don't use them like you do a katana, because they are inherently one-handed.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Mar 24, 2022 21:14:22 GMT
One problem with katate uchi getting over long tsuka is if the tsuka is full of a ton of hollow space it’s a break risk.
They do kit some antique katateuchi with longer tsuka in Japan. Makes them look more like the typical katana. I owned a couple like that. Problem is those are known to get tsuka breaks when used with iaido. Never used mine so it’s no problem to me but many in Japan do use them for iaido and then run into that problem.
So yeah, you can do it to get an asthetic but performance might suffer.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Mar 24, 2022 21:20:04 GMT
Oh man, you messed up real bad having such a short tsuka with a 24 inch blade................ Not for a katateuchi. You don't use them like you do a katana, because they are inherently one-handed. Word my man, I’ve owned a couple and they all feel like a Japanese version of the Gladius. I can’t see them as anything but a close quarters weapon ment for disorganized melee. anyone unfamiliar with katateuchi should look at www.sho-shin.com/katteuchi.htmlThey’re short, fat, uchigatana meant to be used 1 handed. A short tsuka is part of the design.
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Post by treeslicer on Mar 25, 2022 0:16:39 GMT
Not for a katateuchi. You don't use them like you do a katana, because they are inherently one-handed. Word my man, I’ve owned a couple and they all feel like a Japanese version of the Gladius. I can’t see them as anything but a close quarters weapon ment for disorganized melee. anyone unfamiliar with katateuchi should look at www.sho-shin.com/katteuchi.htmlThey’re short, fat, uchigatana meant to be used 1 handed. A short tsuka is part of the design. They certainly aren't all short and fat.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Mar 25, 2022 0:29:05 GMT
I never should speak in absolutes true but Nagayama does put a wide mihaba and ~60something Nagasa as their sugata and that sure is short and fat by my book. I wouldn’t be surprised if you own longer Nagasa versions but that’s outside the average nonetheless.
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Post by naue on Mar 25, 2022 2:55:46 GMT
One problem with katate uchi getting over long tsuka is if the tsuka is full of a ton of hollow space it’s a break risk. They do kit some antique katateuchi with longer tsuka in Japan. Makes them look more like the typical katana. I owned a couple like that. Problem is those are known to get tsuka breaks when used with iaido. Never used mine so it’s no problem to me but many in Japan do use them for iaido and then run into that problem. So yeah, you can do it to get an asthetic but performance might suffer.
Good reminder that the tsuka is often not original to the blade. I wonder if the opposite is sometimes true too, where there were longer tsuka originally but later fitted them with shorter ones when they became more decorative? These antiques (the daito) seem to have really short tsuka but I can't tell if they are katate-uchi or not:
From Wikipedia, apparently a pair from the Tokyo National Museum.
Nice! Perhaps not all were like that as Treeslicer said, but as a "Japanese Gladius" how did the balance on yours feel? If you have specifications that'd be even better.
My repro feels pretty ok, a bit like a beefy naval cutlass of the same length which I suppose makes sense if they're both meant for "disorganized melee". Testing it again, I found that it actually feels MUCH lighter and nimbler than my Cheness iaito despite actually being only 2-4 ounces lighter. So maybe my hopes to adjust it are just the result of arbitrary perfectionism .
Still, if anyone finds a cheap, long kashira cap somewhere online I'd still like the option of being able to extend the tsuka by a cm or so...unless the kashira would be too unsturdy?
(Btw - nice avatar. Darkest Dungeon is awesome.)
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Mar 25, 2022 5:09:06 GMT
Pretty damn sure those are in uchigatana koshirae from the muromachi www.nihonto.com/uchigatana-koshirae/ technically what we call katana are uchigatana in uchigatana koshirae but that sure looks sengoku, so yeah, could be katateuchi. As for the one I had, it was only 2 shaku and had about 1.6cm of sori, Nagasa was quite thick at 3.1cm motohaba and 2.1cm sakihaba. It was one of Mino’s blades from the sengoku. It felt fat to me and not light for it’s size, I have a pre sengoku katana from mid muromachi or something and that one is 11cm longer but thanks to it being very tapered weighs about the same or at least feels like it weighs the same. So my impression is katate uchi are stout but perfectly wieldable 1 handed. And it gets confusing since uchigatana from the muromachi come in three flavors: thin and tapering from before sengoku, katateuchi, and then terminal muromachi that look like the katateuchi I posted but much longer with a longer nakago too www.fujibi.or.jp/en/our-collection/profile-of-works.html?work_id=10117 those end up influencing your standard Edo period katana. Oh and some katateuchi indeed have long cutting edges but many got machi-okuri in the Edo period to make them like normal two handed katana. I guess you could try adding a kashira. I wouldn’t worry too much about the breakage since it needs to be a lot of empty wood space and it seems the Japanese people using them to cut were really reckless. And thanks! I was wondering how long it would be before someone picked up the reference.
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Post by treeslicer on Mar 25, 2022 7:03:31 GMT
One problem with katate uchi getting over long tsuka is if the tsuka is full of a ton of hollow space it’s a break risk. They do kit some antique katateuchi with longer tsuka in Japan. Makes them look more like the typical katana. I owned a couple like that. Problem is those are known to get tsuka breaks when used with iaido. Never used mine so it’s no problem to me but many in Japan do use them for iaido and then run into that problem. So yeah, you can do it to get an asthetic but performance might suffer.
Good reminder that the tsuka is often not original to the blade...............
From Wikipedia, apparently a pair from the Tokyo National Museum.
The examples from the Met are unrelated Muromachi blades later placed in that plain-vanilla late Edo koshirae during the 1700's, telling us absolutely nothing about the original mountings.
The red-and-gold set, OTOH, is well-known and historically notable as a daimyo-quality example of koshirae from the Momoyama period. The daisho was gifted to Mizoguchi Hidekatsu by Hideyoshi Toyotomi. Among other similar examples from the Momoyama, it can be seen in Kanzan Sato's The Japanese Sword.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Mar 25, 2022 14:05:41 GMT
A lot of textbook tensho koshirae is black and plain looking www.nihonto.com/uchigatana-koshirae/Sure Akechi koshirae has red but that doesn’t mean iron Tsuba, black saya and leather wrap isn’t the norm. Ashigaru aren’t going to carry the same bling their lords do. Edit: good old Darcy has a good old example of Tensho koshirae yuhindo.com/tensho-field-koshirae/ like always he’s got a ton of photos. It’s a Juyo and fit a bigger sword so it’s possible the katateuchi koshirae peons had was even simpler.
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