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Post by joakimlinde on Mar 18, 2022 19:02:28 GMT
The theme for this test cutting session: Cut the tatami mat, but finish the cut with the point forward.
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Post by markus313 on Mar 19, 2022 7:56:09 GMT
I love the videos. It is debatable, however, what’s a Zornhau. I don’t see that much “Zorn” in these cuts.
Here’s Zornhau...
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Mar 19, 2022 21:42:59 GMT
Meyer isn't everything ;) Call it Zornhau, Zorhnau-Ort, Oberhau in unteres Hängen, doesn't really matter. What matters more is that you are always stepping first and then moving the hands/sword. Often seen in cutting videos because it generates power more easily but martially, it's almost always a bad idea, moving your body into the opponent's reach before your sword is protecting you/threatening your opponent.
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Post by markus313 on Mar 19, 2022 21:50:01 GMT
Meyer isn't everything  Call it Zornhau, Zorhnau-Ort, Oberhau in unteres Hängen, doesn't really matter. What matters more is that you are always stepping first and then moving the hands/sword. Often seen in cutting videos because it generates power more easily but martially, it's almost always a bad idea, moving your body into the opponent's reach before your sword is protecting you/threatening your opponent. Agreed on Meyer A good Zornhau is no false-time attack, though. |
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Post by joakimlinde on Mar 20, 2022 7:59:42 GMT
We're not practicing Meyer. The earlier sources place a lot of emphasis on Zornhau Ort, where the cut is immediately followed by a thrust. That is why the cut finishes with the point forward.
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Post by markus313 on Mar 20, 2022 9:11:45 GMT
We're not practicing Meyer. The earlier sources place a lot of emphasis on Zornhau Ort, where the cut is immediately followed by a thrust. That is why the cut finishes with the point forward. I get that. Meyer has two distinct Zornhau finishes (Wechsel and Langort). Meyer did not evolve out of nothing.
I understand that you interpret a Zornhau as a diagonal oberhau ending in some kind of langort; which - to mee - looks like you're searching for a bind from unteres Hängen (with a rather reserved mindset, it seems to me - not much body rotation during the strike, elbows pressing rather down instead of forwards). That's all fine with me. My (current) interpretation differs a bit (Meyer vs. earlier sources aside), in that the objective of the stepping before the cut serves to multply the power of the upper body (not merely the arms) - and can either strike down into Wechsel (very powerfull chopping/drawing cut) or push/slice forwards into Langort in a continous motion (which is safer in most circumstances). In both kind of attacks you'll meet an opponents blade with a lot of displacing force. Of course you can play with the hilt position if your opponent's strike should come in the Vor after you initiated your step - which may let you end up in a Hängen. But the aim of the Zornhau should always be to strike very powerfully to the opponents body. It's a single-time attack with a strong hip twist, looking to crush through your opponent's indes attack resp. his defense. It is not an diagonal Oberhau in a false time, looking for gaining some power through forward movement of the feet, while at the same time wanting to end up in some mix of a defensive/threatening position, should the opponent evade. This disconnects the upper body from the lower body, this lacks power, is too reactive mentally and takes two times.
This robs the Zorn of its potential.
Don't bother with me though, please excuse my nitpicking. I really enjoy your videos. You clearly know what you're doing. Please keep up and thank you for sharing. |
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Post by joakimlinde on Mar 21, 2022 19:41:49 GMT
What a Zornhau is will depend on both the source and the interpretation. Descriptions (especially in the earlier sources) are missing details, so there are multiple interpretations that are consistent with the text. My personal interpretation doesn't quite match what is taught at the club and the tatami cutting in the video doesn't fully match either interpretation. For test cutting I really like starting simple and add then complexity to get closer and closer to including all aspects of the intended cut.
It's been a while since I last read Meyer, so take what I write about Meyer with a grain of salt. To me, it seems Meyer is using Zornhau as a description of long edge diagonal cuts in general, with many different variations and applications.
In Ringeck/Danzig/Lew, on the other hand, Zornhau is entirely (or almost entirely) described as a defensive cut. Instead of a parry, cut toward the opponent, but in such a way that your sword covers you. A lot emphasis is placed on an immediate thrust follow-up (Zornhau Ort) and an entire toolbox of further follow-up depending on the response to the thrust.
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Post by markus313 on Mar 21, 2022 21:35:15 GMT
No disagreeing with any of that 
No easy answers, for sure. I could see us discussing times in the Krieg for hours
Experimenting 
And realizing that German fencing is misanthropy  |
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Post by joakimlinde on Mar 24, 2022 20:59:12 GMT
And realizing that German fencing is misanthropy Huh? |
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Post by markus313 on Mar 24, 2022 21:33:12 GMT
And realizing that German fencing is misanthropy Huh? Don't bother. An uninhibited expression of my cynicism. In fact, I think pretty much ill of most fencing traditions and -cultures I know of. Not so much of the English. It’s a bit complicated. Never mind, perhaps I should not have posted. |
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Call it Zornhau, Zorhnau-Ort, Oberhau in unteres Hängen, doesn't really matter. What matters more is that you are always stepping first and then moving the hands/sword. Often seen in cutting videos because it generates power more easily but martially, it's almost always a bad idea, moving your body into the opponent's reach before your sword is protecting you/threatening your opponent. 
