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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2008 8:08:58 GMT
I have been thinking about this for many years, this being the use of non traditional materials in the creation of traditional European/Asian weaponry.
now I'm not talking about things like wood or plastic wasters or the fake ray skin substance used on many modern Katana, but rather the use of interesting substances for the blades and other parts, the first thing coming to mind being a substance I heard about many years ago which is an opaque blue and supposedly 3 times harder than steel with some extraordinary heat resistant qualities, this substance most likely being a plastic/polymer means even tho it is 3 times harder than steel it may also be strong enough to make a sword blade(if you know of the substance of which I describe please tell me its name as I have been trying to find this out for years to judge if it might work as a good weapons blade substance)
anyway I was just wandering if any of you have heard of weapons made of non traditional materials, and what materials those are or might be, and also your view on using non traditional materials to make melee weapons?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2008 10:45:44 GMT
non-traditional materials for blades, hm? Keeping in mind the age we are now in is called the Steel-age, steel would be the material of choice from today!
But thinking of unusual materials for blades: The Material we´re talking about has to be sharpenable.
Polymers can be very hard and durable, think of Cevlar used in Bulletproof materials, but this doesn´t mean it can be used for our purpose. Hard is not everything.
The one thing I was thinking off some time ago was to make small pieces out of tungstencarbide, one of the most hard manmade material and inserting it via warikomi into some softer material forming the body of the blade, maybe some polymer would be usable here. But what purpose would this thing be for? Cutting Tanks?!
Steel, when heat treated properly, is capable of doing amazing things and totally suitable... or lets say perfectly made for the purpose of cutting.
If you want non traditional methods/materials have a look at a spring tempered blade made of C60 or 9260. These babies hold something we are not totally aware of. They contain a heat treatment totally different to traditionall thus making the resulting form of metal total different to traditionall: Spring tempering forms bainite. Silicon in 9260 adds up to this, C60 is simply heat treated in a different way. Japanese did not know bainite, so this is in fact a non traditional material totally suitable for holding an edge.
Yes, the bainite formed in C60 and 9260 is the same as in Howard Clarcks bainite. The real thing in his blades isn`t the bainite, but it is the bainite at the back AND the hard martensite at the edge!
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Sept 23, 2008 11:39:20 GMT
There was a carbonfiber "tactical katana" out that was supposed to be a superkatana... a link to the seller no longer goes anywhere. Need I say more?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2008 23:43:12 GMT
lesslemming , I know hard is not everything, which is why I said strong also as just hard usually means brittle which obviously would be bad for a blade. I was not only thinking of the blades utilitarian purposes but rather cosmetic, however for me weapon cosmetics don't mean anything unless you can actually use the thing. simply I think a translucent blue sword blade would look awesome, tho there are many components both utilitarian and cosmetic you could use non traditional material for, like cutting out the fuller portion of an appropriate blade and filling it with a strong opaque colored material or having a normal blade but the edge is a nontraditional material like the blue stuff I described. also by non traditional I meant materials that are not metals, not simply more modern metals, but that's my fault for not being more specific. Marc, wasn't exactly going to sell anything I made out of non traditional materials, so the lack of a market isn't a big deal
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Sept 23, 2008 23:54:33 GMT
lesslemming , . Marc, wasn't exactly going to sell anything I made out of non traditional materials, so the lack of a market isn't a big deal Sure, Mate... I just meant that despite technology steel is steel hands down the best sword material...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2008 11:23:35 GMT
lesslemming , . Marc, wasn't exactly going to sell anything I made out of non traditional materials, so the lack of a market isn't a big deal Sure, Mate... I just meant that despite technology steel is steel hands down the best sword material... considering people tend to shy away from using materials other than steel, I wouldn't agree that steel is the best material as most materials simply haven't been used. However, I would agree that steel is the best material that we know of, at the moment.
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Sept 24, 2008 12:13:22 GMT
Oh, I wouldn't say people shy away from them ... if it seems suitable ,and you can name it, someones tryed it.
Titanium, nanotubes, carbonfiber, polymer, but nothing has been effective as dear old steel.
Even if you find a space age plastique material with the same edge holding ability, and better strength and ductility, it wouldn't weigh enough to give it blade prescence. Anyway, that's my thoughts.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2008 12:27:59 GMT
Someone brings this up on a monthly basis. New materials ARE tried. The problem is, they don't have the characteristics needed. People keep thinking Titanium would make "l33t haxx0rz" swords, but it doesn't. They assume Titanium's main selling aspect(it's strength-to-weight ratio) automatically makes it the best material for everything. It's not stronger than steel, just a better strength-to-weight ratio. It also doesn't hold an edge. Even if it did, the weight at sword-length would make it difficult to gain enough momentum to propel the blade through the target. You need SOME heft. The earliest blades were stone. Knapped flint and obsidian were FAR harder, and lightyears sharper than any metallic blade. If treated right, an well-knapped flake of obsidian would probably never need to be resharpened in a lifetime. Alas, stone blades have zero elasticity. There is NO flex, they are brittle and prone to breaking. Usable blades rarely exceeded a few inches. You can put an edge on anything, that doesn't mean it's going to be an effective, useful cutting-tool. The entire REASON steel is used is because it's the only material currently developed that exhibits the balance needed to make an effective cutting tool. When properly heat-treated, the steel in a sword blade is both hard enough to hold a cutting edge, yet flexable enough to survive shock-stress and bending without taking a set. Any other blade material used nowadays is essentially a gimmick. Though some diving-knives are made from Titanium(only because it doesn't react to saltwater), the rest are just trying too hard to sound like a good idea to the ignorant public. There was that custom carbon-fiber-with-Titanium-edge bullsemprini "katana" thing(::gag: , and things like Boker's "Cera-Titan" line. This was an attempt to combine the edge-holding capability of a ceramic blade with the flexability of Titanium. Seperate, neither made a all around good blade, but together they almost were as effective as steel, and only twice the price. I don't think they're still producing that line. My point is that you're essentially trying to reinvent the wheel while purposely leaving out the circle.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Sept 24, 2008 12:50:01 GMT
I have a lettuce knife made out of plastic. It's constructed thus so as to not brown the lettuce. Anyone want a you tube vid of me using said knife & hacking up some lettuces on top of cutting stand? But yeah, seriously. Such a material could maybe be used for a shorter blade; knife, axe etc? The biggest advantage would be smuggling it past metal detectors.... I didn't say that... Homeland security etc...
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Post by brotherbanzai on Sept 24, 2008 13:55:59 GMT
Hi borathian, If your purpose is just to make a blade that looks different, then there are certainly other materials you can use, but if your purpose is to improve the blade you're pretty much out of luck. Your best bet would be to accentuate a steel blade with other nontraditional materials. If you do anything to the blade itself it's only going to be cosmetic and will almost certainly make the blade less useful rather than more useful. You could cut a fuller all the way through a blade, countersink both sides, and then cast in a translucent colored plastic into it. That would give you a more or less usable blade but the modification would make it less of a good blade than an all steel blade at a higher cost.
Unusual materials have more use on parts other than the blade itself. For instance, carbon fiber makes a nice saya or scabbard material.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2008 11:22:16 GMT
I dont think anyone is really getting what I'm thinking of, but o well. Someone brings this up on a monthly basis. New materials ARE tried. The problem is, they don't have the characteristics needed. People keep thinking Titanium would make "l33t haxx0rz" swords, but it doesn't. They assume Titanium's main selling aspect(it's strength-to-weight ratio) automatically makes it the best material for everything. It's not stronger than steel, just a better strength-to-weight ratio. It also doesn't hold an edge. Even if it did, the weight at sword-length would make it difficult to gain enough momentum to propel the blade through the target. You need SOME heft. The earliest blades were stone. Knapped flint and obsidian were FAR harder, and lightyears sharper than any metallic blade. If treated right, an well-knapped flake of obsidian would probably never need to be resharpened in a lifetime. Alas, stone blades have zero elasticity. There is NO flex, they are brittle and prone to breaking. Usable blades rarely exceeded a few inches. You can put an edge on anything, that doesn't mean it's going to be an effective, useful cutting-tool. The entire REASON steel is used is because it's the only material currently developed that exhibits the balance needed to make an effective cutting tool. When properly heat-treated, the steel in a sword blade is both hard enough to hold a cutting edge, yet flexable enough to survive shock-stress and bending without taking a set. Any other blade material used nowadays is essentially a gimmick. Though some diving-knives are made from Titanium(only because it doesn't react to saltwater), the rest are just trying too hard to sound like a good idea to the ignorant public. There was that custom carbon-fiber-with-Titanium-edge bullsemprini "katana" thing(::gag: , and things like Boker's "Cera-Titan" line. This was an attempt to combine the edge-holding capability of a ceramic blade with the flexability of Titanium. Seperate, neither made a all around good blade, but together they almost were as effective as steel, and only twice the price. I don't think they're still producing that line. My point is that you're essentially trying to reinvent the wheel while purposely leaving out the circle. I know all of this already actually, but there are just so many materials and so many variations of those materials, I would think some one some were would have stumbled upon something that's reminiscent of steel but has an entirely different look to it. I'm not trying to reinvent the sword(which is what I want to make/mod I simply wish to make a sword that is unique in a way that is different than most others. brotherbanzai, nope I don't want to improve the sword, as in my eyes its already the perfect instrument of war, I simply want to make one that is unique beyond the norm, a la something resembling this - but obviously not all mouthless face chibi
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2008 18:57:01 GMT
Anything can be done. ANYTHING.
Just don't expect it to function as a sword. I suggest setting a specific goal of making your own, custom, sword-like-object. A prop, essentially.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2008 1:17:41 GMT
Anything can be done. ANYTHING. Just don't expect it to function as a sword. I suggest setting a specific goal of making your own, custom, sword-like-object. A prop, essentially. I have a very utilitarian mind set when it comes to my hobbies. Simply it can look good but if it does not function there's no point in making/modding it, so when/if I mod a blade it will most definitely be functional, and I will settle for nothing less, even if it takes quite some time to research and complete
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2008 15:07:27 GMT
another super-modern material (no kidding) would be zirkondioxyde. ZnO2 is a very hard ceramic material used in highspeed/temperature cutting tools. This stuff is hard, extremely hard. And it looks very nice, absolutely white. I own a kitchen knive made of this, for hard work. I bought diamond pastes to sharpen it and it took me hours...
BTW. this stuff will not be detected by metal detectors, because it has no metal in it. In the US producers are forced to insert a metal bar into the handle, so it can be detected. But mine certainly has none! I´m not proud of it, but it´s true.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2008 1:51:21 GMT
another super-modern material (no kidding) would be zirkondioxyde. ZnO2 is a very hard ceramic material used in highspeed/temperature cutting tools. This stuff is hard, extremely hard. And it looks very nice, absolutely white. I own a kitchen knive made of this, for hard work. I bought diamond pastes to sharpen it and it took me hours... BTW. this stuff will not be detected by metal detectors, because it has no metal in it. In the US producers are forced to insert a metal bar into the handle, so it can be detected. But mine certainly has none! I´m not proud of it, but it´s true. that's interesting I wonder how it would hold up as a sword considering a sword in significantly longer than a knife and thus is more prone to braking if not made out of a material that is also strong(has give), tho I also wonder, if you have a material that is hard enough is it still subject to the same plain of limitations that weaker materials are, tho it is a ceramic which tends to be more fragile the longer it is and not a metal which tends to bend the longer it is. this material you speak of would be very interesting to study when used in the production of different kinds of weapons.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2008 19:13:39 GMT
ZnO2 is of course not suitable for anything longer than 20cm. I let mine drop on the floor once, and it didn`t break but still this stuff won`t hold up to any impact. I had all of those ceramic materials during my material science lessons and what they are used for and why they have their specific abilities. That´s indeed very interesting stuff but nothing that can be used for our purpose, I think. What we should be looking for is some material that is ductile and hard at the same time. This would be the first test for any material willing to be used as a sword. Ceramics are not ductile at all! Organic carbon-polymers did some amazing things in the past. There are three billion organic compounds known today still growing. But I can tell you, 99.99999% of the time you get useless brown mud, when creating a new organic material. Because we don`t have anything usefull today (for our purpose) we will have to wait until one time someone invents per accident something like metal made of organic material. I prefer perfecting the one method we all know and improve it. There is still much to learn about metal and its treatment. This, I think is the key point. Not thinking about new materials, but thinking about new ways to treat metal. Metal is the perfect impersonation of our ability for immagination. It can be anything you can think of and is only limited by your skill. Improve your skills, and you will find metal/steel that complements them
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2008 20:23:26 GMT
on the note of perfecting what we have, you can theoretically make superior alloys in a weightless environment since the component materials don't pool/separate like those made in an environment that has gravity and thus are more homogeneous, which makes the resulting materials qualitys more uniform, tho obviously this probably wont happen in the near future
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2008 14:37:27 GMT
this problem has been solved already; therefore powder steel was invented. The components of the alloy are mixed in a powder state at a size of a couple of atoms resutling in extreme homogenous steel. This certainly has its purpose but is overkill for ours. Btw. in non gravity space you still have much problems with segregation of the components, because they are attracting each other vigourosly N'ah that´s just fun. Howard Clarck did it right, not that I am admiring him but he took something good (steel/martensite), took something that was known in other places(bainite) combined these, experimented and invented something good.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2008 17:38:58 GMT
this problem has been solved already; therefore powder steel was invented. The components of the alloy are mixed in a powder state at a size of a couple of atoms resutling in extreme homogenous steel. This certainly has its purpose but is overkill for ours. Btw. in non gravity space you still have much problems with segregation of the components, because they are attracting each other vigourosly N'ah that´s just fun. Howard Clarck did it right, not that I am admiring him but he took something good (steel/martensite), took something that was known in other places(bainite) combined these, experimented and invented something good. well that's neat.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2008 8:24:27 GMT
Awww, HR you are mellowing on me brother, where is the righteous indignation? You realise you just made sense, a valid point and well received and didn't insult anyone? I am stunned, didn't realise you had it in you and also I am amazed because you actually did it. The was completely tongue in cheek I am teasing Although sometimes like polishing a sword abrasive components can be useful. I don't see why we want to fiddle with things that have worked for hundreds of years, I mean yeah polymers and etc but steel is just so pretty, especially bronzes and things. As to ceramics, ceramics are terrible for anything longer than a knife and even then I wouldn't really trust it. Obsidian is the best material for the size of blades you can use it for, the best scalpels in the world are made of obsidian, we just need to create swords with monomolecular edges then the worlds problems will be solved!
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