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Post by mountainsylph on Feb 20, 2022 13:39:18 GMT
Seeing as they were originally a bronze sword design that got used for steel would you say that any techniques that may have been used for bronze swords would remain (That can possibly be used to construct the techniques of all bronze swords in general) within Chinese martial arts? If this analogy it correct it would be like if the Khopesh design survived and got remade in steel forms I imagine. Are there any clues or surviving manuals at all from Ancient or more recent Chinese texts that might talk about how bronze swords would be used differently compared to steel ones? Well unless bronze swords would essentially be the same as steel ones? Consider this source maybe for any ideas which 'Jian' techniques would seem to work the best with bronze swords or versions of it?: www.livescience.com/bronze-age-sword-reenactments.html |
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Post by soulfromheart on Feb 20, 2022 16:32:15 GMT
Seeing as they were originally a bronze sword design that got used for steel would you say that any techniques that may have been used for bronze swords would remain (That can possibly be used to construct the techniques of all bronze swords in general) within Chinese martial arts? If this analogy it correct it would be like if the Khopesh design survived and got remade in steel forms I imagine. Are there any clues or surviving manuals at all from Ancient or more recent Chinese texts that might talk about how bronze swords would be used differently compared to steel ones? Well unless bronze swords would essentially be the same as steel ones? Consider this source maybe for any ideas which 'Jian' techniques would seem to work the best with bronze swords or versions of it?: www.livescience.com/bronze-age-sword-reenactments.htmlI think kk (from LK Chen) might have more informations about this. From what I recall, we can see the transition between bronze and iron/steel swords with their Magnificent Chu Jian (steel sword that still uses bronze swords' double groove construction) and later Han Dynasty Soaring Sky (still with eight-sided blade bronze sword style but longer) and Flying Phoenix (with typical four-sided blade). Having the latter twos, I would say that the Soaring Sky is apparently tougher and the Flying Phoenix is apparently the better cutter (and I saw on their site that they changed their grip wrap recently). Basically, people made do with what they knew (bronze smith with steel -> bronze style steel sword) then when they experimented and saw they could do otherwise (eight-sided to four-sided blade), they changed. The Art of Fire and Iron had an article about chinese bronze sword construction too. |
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Post by mountainsylph on Feb 21, 2022 7:20:42 GMT
Seeing as they were originally a bronze sword design that got used for steel would you say that any techniques that may have been used for bronze swords would remain (That can possibly be used to construct the techniques of all bronze swords in general) within Chinese martial arts? If this analogy it correct it would be like if the Khopesh design survived and got remade in steel forms I imagine. Are there any clues or surviving manuals at all from Ancient or more recent Chinese texts that might talk about how bronze swords would be used differently compared to steel ones? Well unless bronze swords would essentially be the same as steel ones? Consider this source maybe for any ideas which 'Jian' techniques would seem to work the best with bronze swords or versions of it?: www.livescience.com/bronze-age-sword-reenactments.htmlI think kk (from LK Chen) might have more informations about this. From what I recall, we can see the transition between bronze and iron/steel swords with their Magnificent Chu Jian (steel sword that still uses bronze swords' double groove construction) and later Han Dynasty Soaring Sky (still with eight-sided blade bronze sword style but longer) and Flying Phoenix (with typical four-sided blade). Having the latter twos, I would say that the Soaring Sky is apparently tougher and the Flying Phoenix is apparently the better cutter (and I saw on their site that they changed their grip wrap recently). Basically, people made do with what they knew (bronze smith with steel -> bronze style steel sword) then when they experimented and saw they could do otherwise (eight-sided to four-sided blade), they changed. The Art of Fire and Iron had an article about chinese bronze sword construction too. Was also talking about how people would have fought with Bronze swords although its ok to mention smithing/forging techniques too. Often times people talk about the techniques (Forging and fighting) being lost and needing reconstruction but it seems that we might have a lead from Jian swords in this. |
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Post by pete085 on Apr 4, 2022 7:55:31 GMT
That's a really interesting question. An educated guess of mine would be that the techiques might have been different because bronze is not as tough as steel blades so maybe blade to blade contact was more limited compared to the fighting styles using steel swords. In the cutting department bronze swords are rather impressive considering the test videos of the bronze kophesh I have seen on youtube.
I might be completely wrong though I am a Hema guy and just a total amateur in chinese sword fighting. Had not the chance to learn it properly but am I am interested in taking some online classes from Scott Rodell to learn more about the use of the Jian.
The fighting techniques with the old bronze swords is a field that I am very interested in but I do not have much knowledge about that.
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Post by naue on Apr 4, 2022 21:55:48 GMT
There is a reference to swordsmanship from the time bronze swords were used in China, when a gov. official visits the "maiden of Yue."
Read more about it here:
Like the link on livescience, there are some clues that can be gained from comparing with other bronze age cultures. Here's an interesting article on analyzing bronze sword techniques based on the damage seen on surviving archaeological examples:
In this article they experimented on bronze sword replicas using European messer techniques and found near-identical damage on surviving bronze age swords. Of course this only narrows the possible techniques down slightly, as you might get the same results using an entirely different martial art.
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Post by ambulocetus on Jun 20, 2022 23:55:32 GMT
Wikipedia says that are some texts on unarmed combat from the Han Dynasty, but as for weapons, the oldest manual of which I am aware is the Jixiao Xinshu written by the Ming dynasty general Qi Jiguang in the Ming Dynasty over 1000 years after steel was invented. So I doubt that any type of combat techniques were preserved for that long, assuming they were even codified at such an early period. In those days, the military was mostly conscripts who only got taught the bare minimum. I speculate that the soldiers in those days would have training very similar to what the Greeks had at the time. Basic cuts and thrusts with a sword and sheild. Even the very oldest styles such as Xin Yi or Chang Family Boxing wouldn't have been around long enough for any bronze age techniques to come down through the ages. Once steel was invented, there was simply no need to preserve them.
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