LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Feb 14, 2022 22:41:24 GMT
What, is that a… a … a sharpened crowbar? Something “somewhere between a typical mace and a sword”?? “Existed in Europe as well”??? And is a viable weapon?!?(Used by supposed "elites" no less. Silly, foolish elites.) Well, I guess if you don’t actually misuse the magical incantations--sorry, play semantic games--sorry, I mean offend by calling it a “sword” (in which case the “physics”, you know, suddenly makes it stop working) you’re in the clear. (Then again, this is the guy who, yes, spent a whole video going to town, no pun intended, criticizing the Windlass Munich Town Guard’s overweight nature, mass distribution and lack of distal taper... but then still literally said “But that being said, it’s still not ludicrously heavy, you can still use it absolutely as a fighting weapon, and it is a formidable, essentially complex hilted arming sword… even at the moment, for its price … you’re getting a hell of a sword here. This cuts really really well… this is a great, great option in the price category.” When again, as per physics that’s, you know … tenor.com/view/inconceivable-princessbride-impossible-gif-4940237 )
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pellius
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Post by pellius on Feb 14, 2022 23:19:08 GMT
At about 2:10, Michelle Yeoh wields one against a jian:
Obviously high fantasy, but it’s a famous dramatic demonstration.
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 14, 2022 23:36:38 GMT
It’s not a “sharpened” crowbar. It is a unsharpened bar mace, with a hilt. Plenty of historical percussive weapons are hilted, such as the Germanic rider’s flange maces and certain axes.
It’s not a sword, it doesn’t move and track like an edged weapon, and it moves in different ways than the regular percussive weapons, too. Bar maces have been used throughout history by different ethnic groups.
A sword should move in the way a sword is used, which is different than a mace or warhammer or a truncheon. There is absolutely nobody saying those are not weapons—that’s just cheap strawmanning, but if you make a sword that move like those, it would just be a bad sword.
A pencil can kill someone if you jam into someone’s throat, a smack with a rock on the back of someone’s head will definitely end him. Those are not swords. Simple as that. The criteria to assess whether an object functions as a good sword isn’t whether it can kill a comatose patient laying prone, it’s whether it can defend yourself with the prescribed usage in the proper context.
What can be presented in court as a murder weapon doesn’t automatically become a sword, never mind a good one.
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 14, 2022 23:47:45 GMT
It is also after getting sent an English two-handed sword by Windlass for review, Matt Easton went to Royal Armouries to measure and handle the original and help IMPROVE the English Two-handed sword, and after a complete do-over, the old version is pulled from sale, and the new one is according to Matt Easton itself “having the correct weight, length, profile and distal taper” among other things like better hilt components.
“Oh my GAWD, you can IMPROVE a budget sword??? INCONCEIVABROLLLLLLL”.
To quote Matt himself: “when the specific type of sword has the distal taper, it’s because it really needs to be there.” Not having it will make it a poor representation of the type of the sword.
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 15, 2022 0:01:53 GMT
The Windlass version of Munich townguard weighs (3.4 lbs) about 10% heavier than the originals which are mostly between 3 lbs and 3 lbs 2 oz, which isn’t grossly overweight in itself. But to keep the weight in check, Windlass had to use very thin stock, starting at 3.7mm thick, when the original are 6-7mm thick and taper down to around 3mm. Despite having similar point of balance they move in completely different ways. Please stop reciting the magic incantation of how it would totally KILL DEAD a comatose patient laying in bed—not exactly a great testament of the sword. Matt mentioned there are a number of collab models planned, likely including the Munich Townguard, as Royal Armouries has a hoard of those originals. One can be viewed here collections.royalarmouries.org/object/rac-object-78.htmlLikely the old model will also be on the chopping block if the first batch of collab swords are well received.
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Feb 15, 2022 0:35:44 GMT
Oh, sorry. Didn't see your comments there for a second. Was a little busy billing for this past weekend's work, teaching a subject I don't understand. (Seriously, great work if you can get it!)
But keep talking around and around in semantic games trying to make jargon sound like real scientific principles. I'll grab the popcorn.
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Post by snubnoze on Feb 15, 2022 0:38:02 GMT
I'm confused by the sarcasm in the opening post, how is this some kind of "gotcha" that exposes criticism of swords? This isn't a sword.
Even a 2x4 piece of lumber can "work" as a weapon, doesn't make sword physics irrelevant.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 1:23:20 GMT
I wonder how durable such weapons are. You would think all metal meant more strength but looking back, these sort of weapons bent often. Probably wasnt as big an issue when you have a platoon of peasants you could ride your horse back to to get more unbent copies of the weapon from
But still, that is cool. If you were attacked by a walking skeleton, this would be the ideal weapon
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Feb 15, 2022 1:39:11 GMT
Gentleman. We have been watching the behaviors of some of the posters DIRECTLY IN THIS THREAD. This is a last warning. Stop borderline baiting and insulting each other. Rule 4.
Let me remind you of
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Posted here for your convienience.
sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/18656/quot-rules
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Post by howler on Feb 15, 2022 1:42:56 GMT
I own a Cold Steel Sword Breaker (discontinued but recently brought back). It's a bar mace (enhanced baseball bat) with a stabbing point and four hollowed sides featuring edges that focus impact. It seems durable based on the YouTube videos showing a single example smashing a lot of various stuff and not being worse for wear.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 1:52:14 GMT
I wanted to get myself one of those, they are like small swords for a zombie apocalypse. Could use it as a percussive weapon as well as shank, I like the sound of it
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nddave
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Post by nddave on Feb 15, 2022 3:14:04 GMT
Eh, I bet if you gave Miyamoto Musashi a $50 Musha katana he'd still kill his opponent even if they had a Masamune Nihinto. Pretty sure he wouldn't throw it down and say, "Yuck! It has no distal taper!" And run away...
Point being at least 60-70% of antique swords were at most on par or actually worse than the Budget Swords we use today in regards to balance, distal taper and build quality. The other 30-40% were expensive swords that are the nicely preserved and the likes of Albion make replicas of. Arguing ounces and millimeters does not make a sword inferior or supreme.
Sword snobbery is just that sword snobbery. It's a ridiculous superiority argument that really does nothing but divide the community.
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Post by snubnoze on Feb 15, 2022 3:19:01 GMT
Is it really "sword snobbery" to point out improper distal taper that results in an overly flexy and whippy blade?
I thought we were all sword nerds here, is it suddenly taboo to discuss the specifics in sword manufacturing and offering criticisms that can result in a better product - such as what exactly Matt Easton is doing with Windlass?
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Post by jhykron on Feb 15, 2022 4:27:42 GMT
Eh, I bet if you gave Miyamoto Musashi a $50 Musha katana he'd still kill his opponent even if they had a Masamune Nihinto. Pretty sure he wouldn't throw it down and say, "Yuck! It has no distal taper!" And run away... Just for gits and shiggles, I checked KOA's stats on one of their Mushas. It's not the $50 model, but it's closer to $70. www.kultofathena.com/product/musha-oda-clan-katana/Thickness: 7.5 mm - 3.8 mm That's not off from the high-end models... 35-45% taper on a katana is pretty typical at any price. But Katanas are the most popular sword style out there, and have been for a while. It figures that the better low-cost production outfits have learned how to squeeze the most sword for the lowest cost. Can you show me a medieval European sword at that price point that is as reasonably functional? As far as I've seen, they're not even close. The Euro-"Mushas" start at 4 times the price. Either the "institutional know-how" is not sufficient yet, or so far the demand hasn't justified it. But, that being said, it does seem the budget manufacturers are at least looking into taking steps to make their Euro-swords handle more like swords.
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nddave
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Post by nddave on Feb 15, 2022 4:31:56 GMT
Is it really "sword snobbery" to point out improper distal taper that results in an overly flexy and whippy blade? I thought we were all sword nerds here, is it suddenly taboo to discuss the specifics in sword manufacturing and offering criticisms that can result in a better product - such as what exactly Matt Easton is doing with Windlass? It depends, are we comparing $1000 swords to $1000 swords or $1000 swords to $300 swords? As usual context matters. I think this is why the OP was calling out Easton because in context he was dismissing a $300 sword for not being a $1000 sword. Seems he did a decent retraction though in his final statement on the Windlass Munich. Wanting things is one thing but we all need to keep our expectations in check, again $1000 swords are $1000 swords for a reason (unless they are just made crappy lol) so berating $300 swords for not being made like $1000 swords is just asinine. Just like expecting $300 swords to be built like $1000 swords is just as equally asinine. If $300 swords were built like $1000 swords then well they'd be $1000 swords. If Easton can somehow magically make a $300 Windlass product the same as a $1000 Albion, more power to him. But in reality that's just not going to happen, and if so I guess we've all been overpaying for our Albion swords as well as every other high end production sword, lol.
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nddave
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Post by nddave on Feb 15, 2022 5:01:39 GMT
Eh, I bet if you gave Miyamoto Musashi a $50 Musha katana he'd still kill his opponent even if they had a Masamune Nihinto. Pretty sure he wouldn't throw it down and say, "Yuck! It has no distal taper!" And run away... Just for gits and shiggles, I checked KOA's stats on one of their Mushas. It's not the $50 model, but it's closer to $70. www.kultofathena.com/product/musha-oda-clan-katana/Thickness: 7.5 mm - 3.8 mm That's not off from the high-end models... 35-45% taper on a katana is pretty typical at any price. But Katanas are the most popular sword style out there, and have been for a while. It figures that the better low-cost production outfits have learned how to squeeze the most sword for the lowest cost. Can you show me a medieval European sword at that price point that is as reasonably functional? As far as I've seen, they're not even close. The Euro-"Mushas" start at 4 times the price. Either the "institutional know-how" is not sufficient yet, or so far the demand hasn't justified it. But, that being said, it does seem the budget manufacturers are at least looking into taking steps to make their Euro-swords handle more like swords. But are you aware that the $70 Musha is a factory stamped blade, through hardened 1045 steel, zinc alloy koshirae, synthetic nylon non alternating ito, synthetic samegawa panels and a base Saya with cast alloy koijiri and synthetic nylon sageo? Again it's all about what you pay for. Compare that to a hand forged properly fitted katana with a quality polish, differental hardening and quality koshirae and now you're katana is more in price. Yes the production katana market is larger than the European Medieval market. But the cost differences reflect in what is done and what is able at the price points at the production level. The "institutional know how" is there, it just costs more to hand forge a medieval sword than stamp out a katana blade. Just like it costs more to hand forge a katana than stamp one out. Point was that you seemed to miss is the ignorance of semantics being the end all be all of swords. Also the ignorance that a few ounces of weight or millimeters of blade thickness makes a sword European or not unusable.
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Post by jhykron on Feb 15, 2022 6:13:44 GMT
But are you aware that the $70 Musha is a factory stamped blade, through hardened 1045 steel, zinc alloy koshirae, synthetic nylon non alternating ito, synthetic samegawa panels and a base Saya with cast alloy koijiri and synthetic nylon sageo? Again it's all about what you pay for. Yup. I'm aware of all that. Of course it is. And at every price point between the Musha and the handcrafted ideal, you get more of those goodies. But if you don't compare them as works of art, nor as status symbols, or any other measure besides utility, what have you got? If your handcrafted masterpiece rates 100% of the utility of a Katana (cutting, balance, geometry, edge, toughness) and your Musha rates at 70-80%* in just these factors, you have a pretty sound design for your price point. *- Yes, I'm being a bit arbitrary with the numbers here. But I am not aware of complaints that those models have wonky balance, or that they're floppy, or similar. You pin a Katana snob down, and in the end he's going to have to admit that yeah, they're OK if you want something shaped like a Japanese sword that moves like a Japanese sword and cuts like a Japanese sword. <SNIP> Honestly, it reminds me of the arguments you would get in baseball twenty years ago between the "Metrics Nerds" and the "Old School Scouts". One can certainly overrate objective data (or at least the significance of individual items in your data), but the reaction from some here seems a bit over the top. Or maybe I'm new enough to the hobby (at least the community, anyway) that I don't have enough context... certainly if there has been enough snobbery and obnoxious gatekeeping in the past it might explain it. In any event, I have had the displeasure of handling a few supposedly functional replicas of medieval swords that literally felt like I was swinging a mace instead of a sword (I mean, we are generously talking 10-20%, to use the above example). Luckily, I've never shelled out money for one. But given how hard it is to "try before you buy" in this hobby, I want all the data I can get before I order. ... It seems to me that the budget market for any product is going to have 2 risks: 1. The production or QA is not what it needs to be. More "lemons" are going to slip through the process. 2. Enough corners were cut on the design itself that it just isn't sound. With #1 I still have a chance of getting a good product. With #2 I have no chance. And if that's the case, I want to hear about it. $300 may be "budget" for a replica sword, but it's not an insignificant chunk of change. Anyway, cheers and thanks for replying.
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nddave
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Post by nddave on Feb 15, 2022 7:06:21 GMT
But are you aware that the $70 Musha is a factory stamped blade, through hardened 1045 steel, zinc alloy koshirae, synthetic nylon non alternating ito, synthetic samegawa panels and a base Saya with cast alloy koijiri and synthetic nylon sageo? Again it's all about what you pay for. Yup. I'm aware of all that. Of course it is. And at every price point between the Musha and the handcrafted ideal, you get more of those goodies. But if you don't compare them as works of art, nor as status symbols, or any other measure besides utility, what have you got? If your handcrafted masterpiece rates 100% of the utility of a Katana (cutting, balance, geometry, edge, toughness) and your Musha rates at 70-80%* in just these factors, you have a pretty sound design for your price point. *- Yes, I'm being a bit arbitrary with the numbers here. But I am not aware of complaints that those models have wonky balance, or that they're floppy, or similar. You pin a Katana snob down, and in the end he's going to have to admit that yeah, they're OK if you want something shaped like a Japanese sword that moves like a Japanese sword and cuts like a Japanese sword. <SNIP> Honestly, it reminds me of the arguments you would get in baseball twenty years ago between the "Metrics Nerds" and the "Old School Scouts". One can certainly overrate objective data (or at least the significance of individual items in your data), but the reaction from some here seems a bit over the top. Or maybe I'm new enough to the hobby (at least the community, anyway) that I don't have enough context... certainly if there has been enough snobbery and obnoxious gatekeeping in the past it might explain it. In any event, I have had the displeasure of handling a few supposedly functional replicas of medieval swords that literally felt like I was swinging a mace instead of a sword (I mean, we are generously talking 10-20%, to use the above example). Luckily, I've never shelled out money for one. But given how hard it is to "try before you buy" in this hobby, I want all the data I can get before I order. ... It seems to me that the budget market for any product is going to have 2 risks: 1. The production or QA is not what it needs to be. More "lemons" are going to slip through the process. 2. Enough corners were cut on the design itself that it just isn't sound. With #1 I still have a chance of getting a good product. With #2 I have no chance. And if that's the case, I want to hear about it. $300 may be "budget" for a replica sword, but it's not an insignificant chunk of change. Anyway, cheers and thanks for replying. So do you really believe that a budget medieval sword is below that 70-80%? They're not. Again it's the semantics that get in the way. You're right if someone hasn't handled a sword let alone used it their opinion on it matters less. Add in a lack of experience with swords in general and it matters not. Some are too quick to judge simply on numbers and a lot of things get overlooked or ignorantly dismissed by fault. For example throwing generic stats around from a vendor, like that equates to handling a sword. It doesn't. This is where experience helps tremendously and the insights of members who have such experience and understanding of expectations with the various price points of production swords. Which swords do you have experience with? As we're learning in this discussion all swords are not created equal and as the production market goes some have quality control issues that can definitely make a model hit or miss from sword to sword. Seriously though the trouble with a lot of this is bias and criticism set too high. Calling a sword a "crowbar" or S.L.O (sword like object) is some pretty harsh criticism that literally is best left for actual crowbar and SLOs. Again are we talking a difference of .8oz, 1lbs or 3lbs in weight? Are we talking a Point of Balance difference of .25", 1", or 4"? Are we talking a blade thickness difference of .5mm, 1.25mm or 4.0mm? These are the variables we have to look at including general fit and finish, materials used and hilting. Back in the day 10-20 years ago we had SLOs and sharpened crowbars for swords. Swords with a total weight of 4-6lbs a Point of balance of 5-8" and blades so thick you were a body builder if you could do a flex test! It has definitely gotten a lot better since then in the budget production sword market. Now it seems with some posters and reviewers the "crowbars" and "SLOs" are defined by a 1.5-.5lbs difference in weight, a 1" difference or less in point of balance and a 1.5mm-2mm difference in blade thickness aka distal tapering. If that's the case... behold, a video of me swinging a crowbar! Lol, Cheers as well glad to chat with you and belated welcome to the forum!
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Post by jhykron on Feb 15, 2022 10:16:13 GMT
So do you really believe that a budget medieval sword is below that 70-80%? I would say that, having handled* high-end and budget katanas, and high end and budget medieval swords, that the difference in feel between the latter is somewhat higher than the former. I have no real idea how to quantify that. In this case, though, the numbers do somewhat bear it out. If you compare a high-end katana to a quality budget katana, both are going to be around 27-29 inches long, have a handle around 11 inches long, weigh in at 2.1-2.5 pounds, distal taper somewhat less than 50%, and have a POB 4-6 inches from the Tsuba. There are certainly a lot of fine performance subtleties you can squeeze into that, but at least in feel they are going to be recognizable as the same family. Medieval Euro swords, on the other hand, can be all over the map even when comparing two companies' replicas of the same original blade. If your weight, tapering, balance, hilt length, etc. are all varying by as much as 50%, then there is going to be a world of difference in handling.** But since there are so many pronounced different categories of European Medieval sword, I would also expect that there are some blade geometries where the budget models compare a lot better than others. *- Handled as in ran through a few guards and taken a couple 2-swing combos to the extent the vendor would allow... more extensive exercise with the blades I own, of course **- Which is not to necessarily say either must handle badly, but often it's the case. No, I get that. I'm up to 9 functional swords (6 budget, 2 midrange, 1 supposedly high-end), and haven't yet purchased anything without considering both the metrics and the reviews of people who have actually used them. And honestly, anyone who doesn't have a more productive criticism than "sharpened crowbar" I'm probably going to mentally filter out anyway. OK, I'll pull the stats on that one: From KOA- From your own review: OK, just evaluating the stats: The weight is in the ballpark for a sword of this length, though based on the width and thickness the hilt and/or pommel is probably making up a good bit of the balance. Less than 10% distal taper (no need to even worry if it's linear, concave, or stepped), but based on the POB and the COP there is no way you could call this a crowbar. 3" POB also indicates more weight in the hilt. I would guess that it handles reasonably well... based on the expected weight distribution and geometry it won't feel "alive" by any means, but it shouldn't be overly resisting either. Based on the thinness of the stock and Windlass's reputation with longer swords, one of the main issues I would be looking for in reviews is any concerns about flex and rigidity of the blade. Is my approach here wrong? (I read the rest of your review, and you did address the rigidity. That being said, the thinness of the blade still makes me nervous. If I didn't have the means to handle it firsthand, I'd probably look elsewhere at this price point).
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nddave
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Post by nddave on Feb 15, 2022 16:53:53 GMT
So do you really believe that a budget medieval sword is below that 70-80%? I would say that, having handled* high-end and budget katanas, and high end and budget medieval swords, that the difference in feel between the latter is somewhat higher than the former. I have no real idea how to quantify that. In this case, though, the numbers do somewhat bear it out. If you compare a high-end katana to a quality budget katana, both are going to be around 27-29 inches long, have a handle around 11 inches long, weigh in at 2.1-2.5 pounds, distal taper somewhat less than 50%, and have a POB 4-6 inches from the Tsuba. There are certainly a lot of fine performance subtleties you can squeeze into that, but at least in feel they are going to be recognizable as the same family. Medieval Euro swords, on the other hand, can be all over the map even when comparing two companies' replicas of the same original blade. If your weight, tapering, balance, hilt length, etc. are all varying by as much as 50%, then there is going to be a world of difference in handling.** But since there are so many pronounced different categories of European Medieval sword, I would also expect that there are some blade geometries where the budget models compare a lot better than others. *- Handled as in ran through a few guards and taken a couple 2-swing combos to the extent the vendor would allow... more extensive exercise with the blades I own, of course **- Which is not to necessarily say either must handle badly, but often it's the case. No, I get that. I'm up to 9 functional swords (6 budget, 2 midrange, 1 supposedly high-end), and haven't yet purchased anything without considering both the metrics and the reviews of people who have actually used them. And honestly, anyone who doesn't have a more productive criticism than "sharpened crowbar" I'm probably going to mentally filter out anyway. OK, I'll pull the stats on that one: From KOA- From your own review: OK, just evaluating the stats: The weight is in the ballpark for a sword of this length, though based on the width and thickness the hilt and/or pommel is probably making up a good bit of the balance. Less than 10% distal taper (no need to even worry if it's linear, concave, or stepped), but based on the POB and the COP there is no way you could call this a crowbar. 3" POB also indicates more weight in the hilt. I would guess that it handles reasonably well... based on the expected weight distribution and geometry it won't feel "alive" by any means, but it shouldn't be overly resisting either. Based on the thinness of the stock and Windlass's reputation with longer swords, one of the main issues I would be looking for in reviews is any concerns about flex and rigidity of the blade. Is my approach here wrong? (I read the rest of your review, and you did address the rigidity. That being said, the thinness of the blade still makes me nervous. If I didn't have the means to handle it firsthand, I'd probably look elsewhere at this price point). Well yes the high end will feel slightly better because it's high end. The level of craftsmanship is higher so it will feel better and generally look better too. If it didn't it would be worth the extra money and nobody would buy them. But does that necessarily make budget swords bad? No of course not. From either tier a bad sword is going to be a bad sword it's simply the consistency of the higher priced swords is better because more attention to detail is given. On production katana, one thing I forgot to mention that does make production katana more uniform is the actual blade type of katana that is generally used 90% of the time. That being a Shinogi Zukuri blade type. In retrospect the majority of medieval swords have various typologies that are made which again broadens the field of medieval swords compared to katana. If say every manufacturer simply made Type X or Type XII blades 90% of the time of course the consistency that production katana show in various price tiers would be there with production medieval swords. But because there are so many variables to each blade type there can be short comings on the budget production level. This is also seen in production katana when a budget manufacturer/forge tries to do more intricate blade types of katana, for example laminations and other blade types like Shobu Zukuri for example. How many reviews of budget katana that have tried to punch above their price tier were negative because either they messed up the lamination or got the blade type specifics wrong? Believe me there's plenty. See though that's where opinions can get convoluted because did you really get that much from a simple handling at a booth or showroom to make a grounded opinion? Sometimes even the simple excitement of handling something can skew an opinion especially when it's something expensive. Excellent that's a good way to judge you're purchases and get what's best for you, research and then more research is what I always say and try to keep as constructive as possible to avoid bias and negative criticism. No you're approach is not wrong but again we don't want to get too trapped in the statistical numbers. For example the two key stats I focus on when checking out a new sword is weight and point of balance and how they coralate with the length of the Sword. If I, for example see a sword with a 4lbs weight and 7" point of balance, I'm instantly going to think that sword is heavy. But then I'll look at the length and factor in blade length and grip length. So if we have a sword 4lbs, with a 7" pob, a 30" blade length and a 4" grip, well that's one heavy Arming Sword no matter what the blade type is or the amount of distal taper. But if it's the same weight and pob on a 40" blade and a 10-13" grip than thats a completely different handling sword. Will it still feel heavy? Yes because it's 4lbs with a 7" pob. But since it's a larger longsword/greatsword in proportion it's going to handle different than if that weight and pob was an Arming Sword. So in the end total weight and pob in comparison to length is going to be more telling of a sword's handling than the finer metrics of distal tapering. One thing that is basically old news that keeps lingering is the whole "Windlass Whip" argument. This old news is just that, old news over a decade old on specific longswords and greatswords Windlass produced with pretty much all of them with issue having been discontinued long ago. The majority of my collection is Windlass and the only sword I own that could be considered "whippy" regarding the criticism of yesteryear is my Hero's Warsword which is a 64"ovl Scottish Lowland Claymore. And it's not even that whippy, in comparison my Balaur Arms 13th-14th Century Longsword and my old Hanwei Tinker Fullered Bastard Sword are much more whippy and they're total length is barely the length of the Warsword's blade! Here's another clip of me cutting with the Hero's Warsword, I've reviewed this sword too here and on my channel if you want to check out it's stats and stuff too,
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