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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2022 1:16:49 GMT
I wasn't sure where to put this. The martial arts section is geared to swords, so I just put it here
I been practicing with a medium bag lately, with bare knuckles because I want to start conditioning them for bare knuckle usage. But I been finding a lot of hurdles compared to training with gloves, if you actually want feedback from your bag, it requires a more controlled technique.
Anyway, I been having trouble keeping a consistent hook punch without gloves or wraps, and wanted to know if you guys had any tips, other than the usual practice makes perfect and general forearm training. I find the hook punch is easiest to mess up, and hardest to keep a consistent power where I want it to go, plus I seem to have a greater risk of my wrist collapsing
I should specify I mean hook shots as head height. I'm doing a lot better with body height shots
With gloves, a lot of guys even keep open hands when they hit, and it's easy to let the speed of your hips transfer to the glove, so I feel like it's missing an important part of conditioning the wrists knuckles and hands
Edit:I just realized it would be useful to specify that what I want help in is how to acheive a better hook punch, how to consistently hit at the right angle, or a better way to train my hooks. My hook punch feels weak compared to other ones and less consistent.
And one more thing, this can also double as a general boxing thread. If you go off topic slightly and discuss your fav boxers and their techniques (I'm a Tyson fan), I don't mind.
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Feb 10, 2022 1:27:20 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2022 1:39:28 GMT
Oh damn, I didn't know this was something others wondered. I don't think I would have worded it right to find what you posted either. Thank you im going to read it *edit*I just read it. Good read, I didn't realize different techniques were used. Even when I watch modern bare knuckle boxers and street fights, they tend to use modern boxing style too. But I was feeling the way hooks were done just didn't make sense without gloves, but I suppose they say the same thing about modern boxing defense as well
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Post by pellius on Feb 10, 2022 2:49:24 GMT
If you view hook punches as trapping range attacks to be delivered once your opponent is inside typical punching range, you can deliver them while maintaining a straight forearm/wrist/hand alignment. Your wrist will be as stable as with any other punch. You can try to reach with a hook if you use a horizontal fist, but you’re likely to break your hand or sprain your wrist. With tightly taped wrists and knuckles, you need not worry about this as much. (So always be sure to have a knowledgeable teammate observe your opponent tape and glove up, lest you face an opponent swinging hammers at you.)
I don’t know of a way to reach with a hook using a vertical fist except for the classic haymaker, which is way too slow and exposes your ribs. In an unsanctioned fight, this could be catastrophic, especially if you take a solid lick to your liver.
So, maybe try delivering your hooks from about a half step closer than your jabs.
Just my two cents.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2022 3:17:21 GMT
If you view hook punches as trapping range attacks to be delivered once your opponent is inside typical punching range, you can deliver them while maintaining a straight forearm/wrist/hand alignment. Your wrist will be as stable as with any other punch. You can try to reach with a hook if you use a horizontal fist, but you’re likely to break your hand or sprain your wrist. With tightly taped wrists and knuckles, you need not worry about this as much. (So always be sure to have a knowledgeable teammate observe your opponent tape and glove up, lest you face an opponent swinging hammers at you.) I don’t know of a way to reach with a hook using a vertical fist except for the classic haymaker, which is way too slow and exposes your ribs. In an unsanctioned fight, this could be catastrophic, especially if you take a solid lick to your liver. So, maybe try delivering your hooks from about a half step closer than your jabs. Just my two cents. I find it difficult to get near my bag this way, at least to do it fluidly over and over. Like when I throw a proper hook I'm not close enough to practice it naturally on my bag. Do you usually train this isolated? Or is there a better way to practice this you think? I dunno what I'm doing wrong tbh, but it feels difficult to get close enough that the hook has perfect form, while also having the right power and landing on the right spot on the bag How would you train this
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2022 3:31:45 GMT
To specify my issue I feel like I gotta blade my stance a lot, with the punch hand forward if I wanna hit my bag in the right spot. That's a better way to word my issue. It's either I hit it too close to me (and end up grazing the surface of the bag instead) or with incorrect form
But all this is helping me be more mindful of my training technique
Edit: to Le Mal, I just realized when I do body shots, I tend to prefer keeping my hand verticle. Now that I consider that article, it makes me realize what I can be doing differently. I found I naturally tended to keep my hand verticle from a low shot, and it wasn't really intentional, but now I'm seeing its what is probably giving me success. Thanks again for that read
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Feb 10, 2022 3:51:19 GMT
I *think* I can picture the issue from your description. And to echo pellius, I think, it's a range thing.
I know (on the rare occasions I work a bag :p ) I throw hooks really, really close. (I'm an intentional southpaw too, so it's my dominant hand and I throw hard.)
Like, as in close enough that it could be either a hook or an elbow. (Usually practicing that way, alternating; I love how in mma some guys can basically camouflage which is coming in, hook or elbow, and really catch opponents.)
Have you tried being that close, like close enough to clinch?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2022 4:07:22 GMT
I *think* I can picture the issue from your description. And to echo pellius, I think, it's a range thing. I know (on the rare occasions I work a bag ) I throw hooks really, really close. (I'm an intentional southpaw too, so it's my dominant hand and I throw hard.) Like, as in close enough that it could be either a hook or an elbow. (Usually practicing that way, alternating; I love how in mma some guys can basically camouflage which is coming in, hook or elbow, and really catch opponents.) Have you tried being that close, like close enough to clinch? You know, that might be exactly my issue. That on top of using my right hand from an almost bladed, left forward stance. I find I need to be south paw to through a right hook But I'll try be more mindful, you guys are right, I don't think I'm close enough.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 10, 2022 15:38:42 GMT
Bare knuckles? You must be working towards the goal of severe arthritis at age 50.
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 10, 2022 18:45:08 GMT
I can't really speak to bare-knuckle boxing as the extent of my knowledge stems from a short documentary I watched years ago, but the only thing I'd have thought to point out has already been mentioned: fist orientation.
As for just knuckle conditioning, when I did kenpo in my teenage years, they focused heavily on working with the first two knuckles as they were larger and therefore stronger and would concentrate force better over using the whole fist, plus sparing the other two knuckles. We were also taught to keep our thumbs pressed to the outside of our fists, rather than tucked in, as we'd be less likely to crush/break them on a hard hit.
Beyond that, we did pushups on just the two knuckles, plus occasional work on a small sand bag, mounted to a wooden board, on one of the building's support poles. It might've been an inch thick at its fattest, and maybe 8"x10".
I still like to punch steel poles, sometimes, although lightly these days, as some of the old conditioning remains but not all. At one time I let a buddy practice punching my own fist, and his was sore after five hits while I hadn't thought much of it.
Shoot, I used to tease another buddy by lightly punching the padded binder he used to hold very closely to his chest pretty much all the time at school. One day he challenged me to really go at it, so I did. One good punch revealed he'd removed the padding and reinforced the binder with something much harder, and my fist slid down the mesh enough to tear skin off between my knuckles. Gave him the old "well-played" and excused myself to the office to get a bandaid. Didn't hurt, but it was bleeding. I still have the scar...
But yeah, form practice is the best thing you can do. Your body will give you the best feedback; take it slow and lightly until you find what works and then pick up from there. Fist conditioning comes from fist use. No real shortcuts.
Just don't go copying those Chinese guys who go out and punch trains for practice...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2022 19:50:46 GMT
Random: I was considering getting some sand bags for that purpose too, once I get used to my regular bag. I never did much of the knuckle conditioning stuff at my old dojo, perhaps same reason they never taught us bare knuckle either. I find its easy to do a straight punch, hitting with the two knuckles, but it's super hard to do it right with a hook, palm down. But that might have been my issue palm down 🤔
What other sorts of conditioning did you do? Also good to see you here, I thought you abandoned us
Rufas:I've heard of that happening from guys in comments on YouTube videos. Don't suppose there is safer ways to practice conditioning?
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Post by pellius on Feb 10, 2022 20:59:14 GMT
In the absence of professional coaching and monitoring, I’d recommend committing to low intensity over a long period of time. Just do a little, and stop well inside your limit. Keep the reps/intensity low enough to practice daily without pain.
You will be tearing down parts of your body that are slow to recover. Don’t “push thru” any discomfort.
Again, jmtc.
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Post by Cos on Feb 10, 2022 21:04:57 GMT
Wrap your hands brother.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2022 22:13:23 GMT
Yea that's good enough advice. I usually just do 10 minutes of bareknuckle a day and I try not to punch with full strength all the time (though I can't resist a few good punches here and there lol).
Maybe I'll just keep bare knuckle to a minimum and start slow but wrap my hands for the rest of the time. Maybe wear my gloves too. Alternate between them alone with fist push up's and what not
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Post by pellius on Feb 10, 2022 22:46:36 GMT
One of the advantages of the modern self defense oriented paradigm is that encounters are expected to be rare, brief, and extremely violent. Such self defense systems tend to view survival as the primary goal, and many are willing to make significant bodily sacrifices to prevail.
If that’s kinda your aim, then you might find it sufficient to train bare knuckles just enough not to be surprised in a scrap, and dedicate the bulk of your training time to padded practice.
On the other hand, sanctioned fighting typically has a set of rules and fighting parameters that can be useful in gauging how much damage you can expect to take in a bout.
Knowing the environment in which you will be fighting should also help in estimating the number of unpadded/unwrapped hooks (and other punches) you will be throwing, how long you will need to sustain the ability to fight, and how long you will have to heal.
Either way, though, unwrapped bag time is gonna be hard on your hands.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2022 23:21:24 GMT
One of the advantages of the modern self defense oriented paradigm is that encounters are expected to be rare, brief, and extremely violent. Such self defense systems tend to view survival as the primary goal, and many are willing to make significant bodily sacrifices to prevail. If that’s kinda your aim, then you might find it sufficient to train bare knuckles just enough not to be surprised in a scrap, and dedicate the bulk of your training time to padded practice. On the other hand, sanctioned fighting typically has a set of rules and fighting parameters that can be useful in gauging how much damage you can expect to take in a bout. Knowing the environment in which you will be fighting should also help in estimating the number of unpadded/unwrapped hooks (and other punches) you will be throwing, how long you will need to sustain the ability to fight, and how long you will have to heal. Either way, though, unwrapped bag time is gonna be hard on your hands. This is a really good idea. Keep bareknuckle just to gauge what to expect, and what I'm capable of, once in a while but keep wraps on for the bulk of it. I think I will do that then, along with more gradual and safe knuckle conditioning. Here is another question I've been wondering, how many styles in boxing are useful for a street fight? Like do stuff like Tyson's peekaboo style or Ali's shuffle do any good on the streets? Or are they dependant on the rules of boxing, the giant gloves aiding in blocks, and the ropes on the ring to lean back on? This is one thing I been wondering for a while, if these styles are any good on streets? Is it possible to use a peekaboo style, or a phili style shoulder block, without the big gloves basically functioning like bucklers? Anyone is free to answer and chime in
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Post by pellius on Feb 10, 2022 23:30:30 GMT
Imho, boxing is good for street fighting like cross-country running is good for playing soccer.
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Post by pellius on Feb 10, 2022 23:31:31 GMT
You may get a lot out of a you tuber named Ramsey Dewey out of Shanghai.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2022 23:38:02 GMT
Imho, boxing is good for street fighting like cross-country running is good for playing soccer. I suppose I should specify my goals a bit Is this style of boxing good for street fighting? Due to my culture, I'm kind of expected to participate in street fighting to uphold any sort of reputation, where I used to live anyway. In a weird way, I'm kind of training for the event I ever have to go back to that God forsaken island. It's easier to partake in fighting where I come from than to become a target of random attacks. People aren't as likely to "jump you" if you are known to be willing to fight back Its a hard culture to explain to people who haven't grown up in it. Lots of people like fighting, and if yiu don't fight, you will be picked on and attacked, like one giant prison Maybe it seems immature, maybe it seems low IQ, maybe even comical or ridiculous or any sort of negative connotation, but these are what these communities are like and I always find myself back in them, and Canada doesn't allow us to defend ourselves. Even if the law did, they would find a way to charge you
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Post by Cos on Feb 10, 2022 23:57:36 GMT
Yea that's good enough advice. I usually just do 10 minutes of bareknuckle a day and I try not to punch with full strength all the time (though I can't resist a few good punches here and there lol). Maybe I'll just keep bare knuckle to a minimum and start slow but wrap my hands for the rest of the time. Maybe wear my gloves too. Alternate between them alone with fist push up's and what not Wrapping will help your form in general and provide a good bit of wrist support. I would still be careful because while wraps keep your fists tight and will reduce the chances of injury they aren't going to be a free pass to whale on the bag. Hands are terrible clubs, and slow to heal. Keep them wrapped and work on building that muscle memory.
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