|
Post by curiomansion on Apr 8, 2024 3:21:25 GMT
darkcampaign takitamI prefer constrained grips on swords, so the pommel doesn't bother me for cutting. As to this sword not being a cutter...it's true vs fabric, but vs. bone this sword does incredible damage, not to mention, the edge doesn't really get affected by the target.
|
|
|
Post by darkcampaign on Apr 8, 2024 3:25:39 GMT
I do train techniques that require handling the pommel, and you do indeed lose out on those techniques. For me though, it's a small price to pay for having a mace head at the end of a beautiful longsword! I absolutely agree. The Ljubljana gives you an inspiring sense of confidence that you could either pry your way under and through the most complex, stubborn, resilient mail, or, failing that, still bludgeon its occupant into a blubbering stupor. Everything about this weapon signals loudly that it is a potent, effective, substantial tool, and not a wall decoration, despite how beautiful it is in person. I also have no doubt the blade will do considerable damage to bone, particularly from a solid strike anywhere on the blade starting about 8" down from the tip. I was pleased to note how remarkably sharp Albion was able to get this blade, much more so than I had expected. Then again, both of my Talhoffers also arrived very, very sharp. These general blade types when properly sharpened throw off quite a bit of nicely-pitched wind noise.
|
|
|
Post by bwaze on Apr 8, 2024 15:28:22 GMT
I also didn't quite imagine how holding a grip like this works before I bought the sword. 18 cm (7 1/16 inch) is not an awful lot when the grip ends with a relatively wide oval pommel with relatively sharp edges - what would the ergonomics of the sword be like? And I must say that I don't have much problems, at least not when handling it with bare hands or with thin leather gloves - I haven't tried it with my mitten gauntlets (and I don't intend to), and I haven't received gothic finger gauntlets yet. I find it works best if I don't try to squeeze whole hands in between the cross and the pommel, but try to hold them as far apart as possible, and the heel of the left palm always rests on the flat of the pommel - so when I rotate the blade to full extension, the pommel can slide over the heel of my left hand. That also gives me a bit more room for the right hand to hold the sword in different positions. Kind of like "handshake grip" you use on Viking and other swords with very wide pommel, but the two-handed variant. Transitioning to Zwerchau and thumb grip isn't problematic, and returning back is also without problems. There was some discomfort after a while in a cutting session due to relatively sharp edge of the pommel, but I think it could also be me holding on too tight with the left hand. I think having the wide pommel lying across the heel of the hand was somehow the intended feature - it gives you maximum possible indexing of the blade, and it also prevents the sword from twisting in your grip - like for instance when striking a hard target or encountering opponent's sword or shield - you can never hold a sword as tightly by the oval leather grip as much as the wide pommel prevents twisting! Cutting with this sword is really different experience. I have only cut water bottles for now, but Ljubljana really behaves quite differently than my other Albion, Earl. Technically they are both Oakeshott Type XVIIIb, but very different swords. Earl is longer by almost 7 cm, lighter, hollow ground - and before I bought Ljubljana I thought of it as a quite thrust oriented sword, even with a relatively wide blade and the hollow grind which makes for a really thin edge that can easily be sharpened to scary sharpness - it's prominent central ridge gives it really good stiffness in a thrust, and it's relatively thick throughout. Relatively, of course. Compared to Ljubljana it's almost flimsy now. Ljubljana has a shorter thicker blade that remains thicker throughout - especially on the tip, more aggressive profile taper and probably more substantial tang. All that gives it a feeling like it's completely rigid - which is felt even when you just move both swords through the stances and swing them in the air. Soft targets like water bottles begin to show these differences more, and I imagine cutting or striking denser targets would only show how different they are. Right now My Ljubljana isn't really paper cutting sharp, I bought it second hand so I don't know if this is how it comes from Albion, and I also had some occasional misaligned strikes on the bottles - but even those were fun, like hitting them with a baseball bat - the sword really transfers a lot of energy without much flexing or vibrating! I imagine even perfectly sharpened it would never cut as a sharp Earl can, the edge geometry simply doesn't allow it, but I think I might be surprised.
|
|
|
Post by darkcampaign on Apr 10, 2024 16:18:48 GMT
Cutting with this sword is really different experience. I have only cut water bottles for now, but Ljubljana really behaves quite differently than my other Albion, Earl. Technically they are both Oakeshott Type XVIIIb, but very different swords. Earl is longer by almost 7 cm, lighter, hollow ground ... Ljubljana has a shorter thicker blade that remains thicker throughout - especially on the tip, more aggressive profile taper and probably more substantial tang. All that gives it a feeling like it's completely rigid - which is felt even when you just move both swords through the stances and swing them in the air. Agreed. I thought it might be useful to this discussion for a quick n dirty photo - a comparison illustrating the considerations and reservations surrounding the chosen Oakeshott classification of the Ljubljana. I've hung it between one of my trusty Talhoffers (Type XVa) and my Earl (Type XVIIIb). Several people have commented similarly on the general proportions and handling characteristics of the Ljubjana after cutting with it, and despite its classification, it certainly handles, and is proportioned, quite a bit more like my Talhoffer than my Earl. It's not difficult to see why, just from a cursory glance. I'm not arguing for or against the Ljub's chosen classification, merely putting up a visual that illustrates what the crux of the discussion arises from, and also helping prospective purchasers get a quick visual comparison of these three incredible Albion swords.
|
|
|
Post by seventh on Apr 10, 2024 23:52:56 GMT
Cutting with this sword is really different experience. I have only cut water bottles for now, but Ljubljana really behaves quite differently than my other Albion, Earl. Technically they are both Oakeshott Type XVIIIb, but very different swords. Earl is longer by almost 7 cm, lighter, hollow ground ... Ljubljana has a shorter thicker blade that remains thicker throughout - especially on the tip, more aggressive profile taper and probably more substantial tang. All that gives it a feeling like it's completely rigid - which is felt even when you just move both swords through the stances and swing them in the air. Agreed. I thought it might be useful to this discussion for a quick n dirty photo - a comparison illustrating the considerations and reservations surrounding the chosen Oakeshott classification of the Ljubljana. I've hung it between one of my trusty Talhoffers (Type XVa) and my Earl (Type XVIIIb). Several people have commented similarly on the general proportions and handling characteristics of the Ljubjana after cutting with it, and despite its classification, it certainly handles, and is proportioned, quite a bit more like my Talhoffer than my Earl. It's not difficult to see why, just from a cursory glance. I'm not arguing for or against the Ljub's chosen classification, merely putting up a visual that illustrates what the crux of the discussion arises from, and also helping prospective purchasers get a quick visual comparison of these three incredible Albion swords. The Talhoffer is one of Albion's lightest longswords and it's brother blade the Ringeck has a good reputation, how does that handle- is it extremely fast? It sounds like the Ljubljana is the most "powerful", if that's appropriate to say, and the best all round? I ordered an Earl, it will be a long but worthwhile wait- I guess what really appealed to me about it was the idea of a big but refined weapon, how would you characterize it overall? Pardon all the questions, I'm very enamored with all the Albions
|
|
takitam
Member
Posts: 209
Member is Online
|
Post by takitam on Apr 11, 2024 2:01:42 GMT
Let me start. I have only briefly handled the Ringeck and the Regent. I prefer single handers in general. I found both to be much 'chunkier' in feel than I had imagined. Both give the impression of lightness and quickness from the pictures. Yet in reality they remain thick almost to the tip.
These are not light swords, I do not imagine them to be 'extremely fast'. That would be reserved for civilian dueling swords in skilled hands. These two seemed more like military sidearms to me, especially the Ringeck. Competent at everything but favouring reliability over 'performance'. But that it a pure guess. We really don't know much if anything about swords and their use in the past.
Having said that, let me speculate. The Ringeck seems to be a blade of a singular purpose, which is a military sidearm for dealing with opponents in armor, where toughness and durability are probably more important than cutting. Regent felt more of a 'jack of all trades' type of sword. FWIW, some people say that the Early actually feels heavier in hand than Regent.
That's the best I can do. I'm sure others who actually have the swords and used them for cutting will chime in later.
|
|
|
Post by curiomansion on Apr 11, 2024 7:40:08 GMT
I'm not doubting the experience of any of you, but it's odd to me to hear so much that the Ringeck isn't fast or extremely fast. The one I handled, along with the Talhoffer, was lightning in my hands. Much faster than the Regent and Crecy I got to compare it to. It felt very comparable to a Regenyei medium. I wonder if a batch was ground a bit heavier than normal? Maybe people are comparing them to Albion's shorter XVa's, of which I've never handled any but that would be unfair given the length difference. When comparing swords of lengths over an inch, the blade length needs to be taken into consideration, because the added agility of a shorter weapon doesn't really materialize in any practical way when you spar.
|
|
|
Post by curiomansion on Apr 11, 2024 7:42:12 GMT
bwaze Have you tried interfacing your pinky with the pommel itself? I find with any constrictive handle, interfacing the bottom of your hand with the pommel is very important for good cuts. Learning to pull the little pinky at the start of your cut really gives you some extra umpfh in all your cuts and can substantially give you better follow through. I notice in all your photos your pinky is avoiding the pommel.
|
|
takitam
Member
Posts: 209
Member is Online
|
Post by takitam on Apr 11, 2024 21:24:20 GMT
That's a very good point on how length influences handling. You cannot understand that from just comparing PoB and other stats. But it becomes clear when you hold a sword in hand and swing it. I started a paragraph to mention that when describing the feel of the Regent but then deleted it. This is probably the main reason why it feels a lot more substantial than I imagined. Compared to Principe/Alexandria which can be used to cut with one hand (I don't know if anyone in the past used these type of swords in one hand. It's definitely slower and suboptimal, though it somehow works. But I can imagine doing so from horseback at least. Maybe it's the length, maybe it's the width and profile, maybe it's the extra long guard, maybe it's all of these together or something else. I have no idea ) Regent seems basically useless in one hand for cutting, even though it's lighter. Ringeck might be a bit easier on your joints, but one hand use is still not recommended. You just imagine half-swording with this one. Again, this is all from brief handling, so take it with a grain of salt.
|
|
|
Post by bwaze on Apr 12, 2024 10:07:43 GMT
I would not use Ljubljana single handed, 1.75 kg is quite a lot. But then again, even Earl at 1.5 kg doesn't seem too wieldable in one hand - to me, I'm far from being strong and trained. But even medieval depictions when they show single handed use of longswords it's often in a different context than swordfight between two opponents on foot - it's used on horseback, or delivering blows to unarmoured opponents that don't fight back. A period illustration showing a strikingly similar sword to Ljubljana: Speculum Humanae Salvationis from 1427. (from Albion website)
|
|
|
Post by nddave on Apr 12, 2024 15:46:20 GMT
Cutting with this sword is really different experience. I have only cut water bottles for now, but Ljubljana really behaves quite differently than my other Albion, Earl. Technically they are both Oakeshott Type XVIIIb, but very different swords. Earl is longer by almost 7 cm, lighter, hollow ground ... Ljubljana has a shorter thicker blade that remains thicker throughout - especially on the tip, more aggressive profile taper and probably more substantial tang. All that gives it a feeling like it's completely rigid - which is felt even when you just move both swords through the stances and swing them in the air. Agreed. I thought it might be useful to this discussion for a quick n dirty photo - a comparison illustrating the considerations and reservations surrounding the chosen Oakeshott classification of the Ljubljana. I've hung it between one of my trusty Talhoffers (Type XVa) and my Earl (Type XVIIIb). Several people have commented similarly on the general proportions and handling characteristics of the Ljubjana after cutting with it, and despite its classification, it certainly handles, and is proportioned, quite a bit more like my Talhoffer than my Earl. It's not difficult to see why, just from a cursory glance. I'm not arguing for or against the Ljub's chosen classification, merely putting up a visual that illustrates what the crux of the discussion arises from, and also helping prospective purchasers get a quick visual comparison of these three incredible Albion swords. Yea I've always thought it more in line with a Type XVII by its looks. With you two's description of the blade thickness and rigidity kinda more or less confirms that speculation too that it's more XVII than XVIIIb.
|
|
|
Post by Cottontail Customs on Apr 12, 2024 16:06:57 GMT
Admittedly, not my sword type or genre but I have a lot of respect for the work it takes to do something like this. excellent review and copious notes and data. I love details like this, for any product. Great job!
|
|
|
Post by curiomansion on Apr 12, 2024 18:46:41 GMT
Admittedly, not my sword type or genre but I have a lot of respect for the work it takes to do something like this. excellent review and copious notes and data. I love details like this, for any product. Great job! Thanks! It means a lot coming from a skilled craftsman like yourself! I certainly need to get on your list soon!
|
|
pellius
Moderator
Posts: 5,238
Member is Online
|
Post by pellius on Apr 12, 2024 20:40:22 GMT
If the list opens, I want to be on it!
|
|
|
Post by darkcampaign on Apr 13, 2024 0:32:50 GMT
...it's odd to me to hear so much that the Ringeck isn't fast or extremely fast. The one I handled, along with the Talhoffer, was lightning in my hands. Much faster than the Regent and Crecy I got to compare it to..... Maybe people are comparing them to Albion's shorter XVa's, of which I've never handled any but that would be unfair given the length difference. Agreed. The Talhoffer, despite its not-insignificant 3.4lb weight, is indeed very balanced and fast-handling, particularly for thrusting, aided substantially by its close PoB. The handle is generous and well-sized. In motion, the sword feels more compact than it actually is. The beefy scent-stopper pommel's weight and location helps noticeably while one-handing the ol' Tally. The balance is very good when carrying the sword in one hand during maneuvers such as running, traversing irregular terrain, negotiating obstacles, etc. etc. Striking and thrusting one-handed is certainly viable thanks to that tight PoB, although not preferable. Engaging the second hand truly and instantly brings it into its own. The much more compact Mercenary, on the other hand, is over half a pound lighter and an easy couple of inches shorter than my Talhoffer, making it all the faster (scary fast), and far easier to handle in one hand. Definitely not a fair comparison. The Earl is longer and wider than the Talhoffer, and has a noticeably more blade-forward balance. It feels and moves like the significantly larger sword that it is, even though the weight of the Earl is essentially about the same as the Talhoffer. It has quite a bit more blade presence for cutting, but every bit of its length and heft can be felt during fast maneuvers, especially in one hand. The Talhoffer is much faster in my hands than my Earl. I love my Earl, but I'm a big enough fan of the Talhoffer that I have two of them which, despite being several years apart in production, are nearly identical in weight, dimensions, sharpness, balance, and feel in the hands. Kudos to Albion on that. The Mercenary I handled and cut soft targets with was so light and fast that I ordered one from Albion immediately after using it. I can't wait to have it in the collection. It feels like cheating, much like an arming sword that someone welded a full-sized longsword tang onto. In two hands, it's almost comically quick and extremely controllable. Its only drawback is its shorter 33" blade length, but being a very significant half a pound lighter than the Talhoffer, its nimbleness can make up for some of that lost length. Granted, less mass will likely cost it some forcefulness in striking, but I'll just have to wait and see. The Ljubljana is several ounces heavier than the Talhoffer, but that weight is distributed very evenly between the slightly beefier blade and the much beefier pommel. In my hands, it points and thrusts very similarly to the Talhoffer, a testament to its clever design. The PoB is the key. The significant extra pommel weight is the wild card that gives it that astounding balance, but does add some noticeable inertia while manipulating it. It's impossible to lose with any of the aforementioned builds. They're all different enough that I opted to include them all in my collection. Did I mention that two Talhoffers are always better than one?
|
|
|
Post by curiomansion on Apr 13, 2024 7:03:04 GMT
darkcampaign I hope you picked up a Talhoffer Facsimile to round out the collection! Of the short XVa's the Castellan is the one that speaks to me visually. I need to grab one, but it's lowish on my list.
|
|
|
Post by darkcampaign on Apr 14, 2024 1:06:25 GMT
darkcampaign I hope you picked up a Talhoffer Facsimile to round out the collection! Of the short XVa's the Castellan is the one that speaks to me visually. I need to grab one, but it's lowish on my list. I definitely prefer the aesthetics of the Castellan, but my Talhoffers already have that same exact sweet guard. And I'm not a big fan of the extra short, aggressively waisited grip that Albion installs on some models. I went with the Mercenary to try to mix things up a bit in the looks department, while also keeping roughly the same "tapered grip and scent stopper pommel" configuration that's also found on my go-to longswords. The Mercenary feels like a Talhoffer on crack, with a slightly more forgiving nature when it comes to edge alignment. I'm really looking forward getting my hands on it, and also the Landgraf I ordered. Trying hard to fill in the few remaining gaps in my collection.
|
|
|
Post by darkcampaign on Apr 19, 2024 15:14:57 GMT
I spent considerably more time with the Ljubljana again this morning. The more I cut and thrust with it on soft targets, the more I thoroughly appreciate its incredible balance, finesse and durability. It can dance adroitly, or bludgeon with brutality. The precision in pointability is quite astounding, and not much accuracy is lost at full extension despite the heavy pommel weighing in. Somehow, despite the stiffness of the blade and the solid heft, it still feels amazingly lively in the hand, and just keeps on impressing me. It positively begs to be thrust, and typically finds its target as if guided to it. I also don't find it fatiguing during extended sessions, thanks to that tight PoB. I'm feeling spoiled by the cushy, comfy, thick, grippy spiral cord underwrap on the handle, which makes bare-handed sessions a joy, as well. Feels like I'm stealing a ride in a big old comfy Cadillac, but as soon as I press her to service, she shows the rigid, brutal precision, power and agility of a finely-tuned Mercedes AMG.
This is fast becoming one of my very favorite production swords, in terms of both aesthetics and (especially) handling, for this blade type. She exudes both luxury and performance. What's more, the beautifully low PoB and sweet spiral grip are making me impossibly curious now about the Albion Svante, which shares a number of similarly desirable characteristics and features (along with the Museum Line's somewhat overbuilt price tag). Although the Ljubljana's cost approaches that of a custom build, its precision and capabilities acquit it beautifully of that minor sin, in my book. Nothing else in the Albion line or among the customs I own or have spent time with so far, handles quite like it. It's certainly not the ideal sword for everyone, but it's quite distinct, and lives squarely in my wheelhouse. Make no mistake, this is no gussied-up parade sword or frilly, delicate, engraved wall-hanger. Clearly, N4516 was a serious, purpose-built anti-armor weapon of war.
This sword is also giving me an idea for a custom war sword design, somewhat of a XVII Sempach, but about an inch longer, with an ever so slightly wider blade, and a larger, beefier scent-stopper pommel to tune back the PoB....Oops I almost drooled on my keyboard.
|
|