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Post by paz on Jan 12, 2022 20:11:31 GMT
Hi all. Just a general question to anyone who owns a modern production katana( hanwei , df, cheness,ect ) and a pre 1954 nihonto be it ( koto, shinto)
What was your first impression of the nihonto compared to the modern production blade ?
Was there a difference in how it looked ? , felt, aura, curvature, build.
What did you find most striking or different.
Thanks
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Post by vidar on Jan 12, 2022 22:05:19 GMT
I have a Shinshinto in shirasaya and a number of modern Chinese production swords. What are the main differences? The clear, milky natural hamon versus the etched, overly pronounced or barely visible hamon on the production swords. Also the subtle folded pattern, versus the Damascus pattern on some production swords. Also the perfect fit of the habaki, versus the gaps that you usually see on production swords.
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Post by treeslicer on Jan 12, 2022 22:12:32 GMT
Hi all. Just a general question to anyone who owns a modern production katana( hanwei , df, cheness,ect ) and a pre 1954 nihonto be it ( koto, shinto) What was your first impression of the nihonto compared to the modern production blade ? Was there a difference in how it looked ? , felt, aura, curvature, build. What did you find most striking or different. Thanks Like a lot of people new to a field or subject, you've managed to ask one of those simple-sounding questions which deserves a book-length answer to explain all the whys. For the moment, however, I'll try to keep things simple.
Yes, because of the differing ways that they are made, nihonto and production swords look different, up close. You can tell them apart in hand, unless extreme measures have been taken to improve the production sword's finish, and you cherry-picked the blade to look close to Japanese to start with (or Divine Providence intervened, which has happened to me a couple of times ![default_bowdown.gif](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/iufEdIvcdPZouPgdzoyg.png) ).
Though they have changed styles and such over that time, nihonto are individually handcrafted products made using early medieval technology which hasn't changed a lot in 1000 years. Because the steel used in the blades is made from many little pieces of impure steel stuck together by forge welding, then reheated and folded and welded back together 12 to 16 times to drive out impurities and homogenize the result, it ends up with a very complicated visible structure similar to some woods. Unlike modern industrially folded steel, this structure isn't very easy to see, and is much more complicated under magnification than average Chinese factory folded. The fine texture (which affects how it reflects light) isn't the same, though part of this is affected by polishing.
Because of differences in how the final quenching is done, along with differences in polishing, the hamon seldom look the same, either. When you add all the steelmaking differences up, the nihonto usually hold a finer edge, so they seem to cut better, though not in all cases, or magically so.
Build is usually much better in nihonto, which you'd expect for what they cost finished.
Non-folded blades look nothing like a nihonto blade in hand, and through-hardened, of course, don't either.
As to first impression of a polished nihonto, for me it's usually, "Wow, look at all the pretty little things to see in the blade...........". For an out-of-polish nihonto, it's more likely, "Darn, what a disaster. I've got a year's work ahead of me..........."
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Post by JH Lee on Jan 13, 2022 1:25:45 GMT
Not all nihonto are created equal. I've come across junk as well as relatively high-level works of art. The ones in my private collection, compared to modern repro.... gosh, there's just too much to say.
To be succinct, I will just say that pretty much every aspect, every millimeter of the nihonto in my collection show evidence of deliberate and thoughtful intention in execution. They were intended to embody a variety of cultural and spiritual meaning; as much weapons as they were works of art and status, etc.
Modern repros also vary too much to generalize... but on the whole, they tend to prioritize things like scalability, marketability, and efficiency of production. They are what they are and have their place.
Not sure if this addresses your question at all. Just musing out loud~
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Post by novak77 on Jan 13, 2022 1:55:57 GMT
Just echoing what's been mentioned above.
The hamon activity, geometry, fitment, and attention to detail, are gonna be night, and day on a nice nihonto thats been well cared for.
I will add, as far as modern blades go, the Motohara's are damn nice swords. Though one could argue, they're not really a production sword.
Cheers
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Post by noktorn on Jan 14, 2022 19:12:07 GMT
I only have a beat up Edo Period Wakizashi, but it's still the most well executed sword I own. Everything is crisp, nothing seems artificially manipulated to ape a certain aspect of geometry (if that makes sense). You can get some damn nice Katana out of places like China, South Korea, etc--stuff i'm convinced real samurai would have had no qualms in carrying. But the only way I think you replicate a genuine piece, is if it's truly hand forged by a skilled smith who gives the blade his utmost personal attention (i.e. Actual custom stuff from actual individual smiths--Barrett, Clark, Boomershine, Rado, etc).
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Post by leed on Jan 14, 2022 21:18:46 GMT
Does anyone care how they work? Or is "pretty" the only criteria?
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Post by JH Lee on Jan 14, 2022 21:22:01 GMT
Does anyone care how they work? Or is "pretty" the only criteria? What do you mean by "how they work"?
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Post by treeslicer on Jan 15, 2022 0:42:14 GMT
Does anyone care how they work? Or is "pretty" the only criteria? Avoiding some strictly "art swords" with over-manipulated flashy hamon, "pretty" in nihonto usually reflects the care taken in forging and quenching the blade. That affects cutting performance.
Additionally, some of the traditional polishing techniques (before 20th. Century collector fads like hadori) reduced visibility, amounting to camouflage at certain angles.
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Post by novak77 on Jan 15, 2022 0:45:21 GMT
Does anyone care how they work? Or is "pretty" the only criteria? What do you mean by "how they work"? Also curious on the definition of "how they work"? From a Koryu student point of view, my Nihonto are in a different league than my Motohara for Iai. Cheers
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Post by treeslicer on Jan 15, 2022 0:50:36 GMT
What do you mean by "how they work"? Also curious on the "how they work"? How so? All of mine cut and handle very well indeed.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 15, 2022 1:00:58 GMT
As already alluded, almost all of the "aesthetic" features desired in nihonto are merely results of the forging and heat treating process. Specifically, they are indicators that these were performed at a superior level to swords lacking in such features. Sugata is another animal, but it's safe to say the Japanese have proven their methods quite solidly over the last thousand years. Cutting performance is often touted as the ultimate indicator of a sword's quality. It is important, but it is not the only thing that is important. A sword that cuts very well once may not have the handling capabilities needed to set up that second cut, for instance. People get too focused on "durability" and believe modern steels are inherently better than the stuff of old. They are not. Modern reproductions run the gamut of extremely poorly made to extremely well made, and carry coordinating prices. A sword you found in a collector's catalog for $50 is no match for even the $300 reproductions this forum was started to discuss, and those don't hold a candle to nihonto or comparable-quality modern smiths. A sword that is made exceptionally well, so that it performs exceptionally well, will also bear characteristics that reflect this, which are thus desirable, that is, attractive. As such, "looks" are a primary indicator of "how they work" to those who know what to look for. Myself, I only have two very mediocre nihonto wakizashi, and a handful of modern, made-in-China replicas from the sub-$500 market of ten years ago or more. Even then, it's easy to see the expertise put into the nihonto outclasses the production of the cheaper repros. That's not just aesthetics. Sure, they look much nicer, but that's because they were made to work a certain way. ![;)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by noktorn on Jan 15, 2022 1:51:49 GMT
Does anyone care how they work? Or is "pretty" the only criteria? Avoiding some strictly "art swords" with over-manipulated flashy hamon, "pretty" in nihonto usually reflects the care taken in forging and quenching the blade. That affects cutting performance.
Additionally, some of the traditional polishing techniques (before 20th. Century collector fads like hadori) reduced visibility, amounting to camouflage at certain angles.
I'm curious about this--why a polish to reduce visibility?
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Post by novak77 on Jan 15, 2022 2:37:02 GMT
Avoiding some strictly "art swords" with over-manipulated flashy hamon, "pretty" in nihonto usually reflects the care taken in forging and quenching the blade. That affects cutting performance.
Additionally, some of the traditional polishing techniques (before 20th. Century collector fads like hadori) reduced visibility, amounting to camouflage at certain angles.
I'm curious about this--why a polish to reduce visibility? treeslicer is way more learned when it comes to swords stuff than I. But in our Ryu-ha, anything you can do to screw with your opponents vision, depth perception, timing, etc is considered a good thing. Cheers
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Post by treeslicer on Jan 15, 2022 7:22:58 GMT
I'm curious about this--why a polish to reduce visibility? ...............But in our Ryu-ha, anything you can do to screw with your opponents vision, depth perception, timing, etc is considered a good thing. Cheers Yup, that's how it works. It has to do with making it harder for your opponent to instantly (remember that these exchanges are fast) determine location and motion of your sword. This gives a slight advantage through confusion. and messes up things like maai, instinctive counters, etc..
It's similar to what happens with air superiority aircraft paints, or naval dazzle camouflage, somewhere between the two in effect, and similarly dependent on aspect angle and background. At certain kamae in the right conditions, it's like the sword briefly disappears into the background.
I saw an online article this last year or so that described this and has a few photos. Of course, now I can't seem to find the !@#$%^&*! webpage.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 15, 2022 7:42:27 GMT
Zatoichi - Chin Dao Tsu Question: If you're blindfolded and handed over a katana, could you tell if it's a nihonto or not? And why?
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Post by treeslicer on Jan 15, 2022 8:06:26 GMT
Zatoichi - Chin Dao Tsu Question: If you're blindfolded and handed over a katana, could you tell if it's a nihonto or not? And why? Why, use the Force, of course!
Seriously, I don't know of a foolproof way, but examining the nakago with your fingers would rule out a lot of bad replicas/reproductions. Anything involving feeling the nagasa for texture could be destructive either to the blade, or to your fingers.
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Post by paz on Jan 15, 2022 13:16:23 GMT
Personally I notice people who seem my collection of modern production blades, being wowed until they ask if there from japan. And that's where they are like meh. Lol
Then it's like me explaining why I have them and their purpose (show , ma , or just ). Beleive me their are some amazing production katanas at good prices which cutt well. But I think nothing comes close to the aura of a nihonto and the history that it carries with it.
My own issue is that if you are a martial artist then buy the best practical blade you can for a good price (bugei,hanwei,custom,clark). Otherwise if you are a collector with a high budget and can save the few extra go into nihonto market.
My biggest regret as a collector of 15 years is that I spent too much money on modern production katanas which now just sit on the shelves (as they meant to). As when I start practicing iaido I only used iaito.
I could have put around 2,000 uk gbp towards a nihonto.
But back then it was harder to find a nihonto and required far much more learning.
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Post by novak77 on Jan 15, 2022 23:55:45 GMT
Also curious on the "how they work"? How so? All of mine cut and handle very well indeed. Wondering what their definition of "work" was/is (updated my thoughts to be a bit more clear lol).
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Post by leed on Jan 16, 2022 1:23:25 GMT
All talk about how pretty..... I guess that is most important to most of you. I'm not amongst your elitist group. My cheapo....1 dollar...Kat in 1045 cut thru fresh redwood 2x4, 36" long, with ONE swipe. 14 pieces spread over maybe 30 min utes. Plenty of discoloration, no bend or visible damage. Good enough for the job intended.
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