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Post by rammstein on Sept 17, 2008 17:17:56 GMT
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Post by YlliwCir on Sept 17, 2008 18:11:57 GMT
Thanks for the link, Rammy, +1 Interesting stuff.
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Post by alvin on Sept 17, 2008 18:22:04 GMT
Good read Ramm - thanks. The term "Dark Ages" does indeed seem to be a very misleading one. Yes, it fell between the fall of the Roman Empire and the onset of more "enlightened" times. But possibly enlightened is in the eye of the beholder - "historians". And maybe the vision of the beholder can be blurred by ignorance, prejudice and a number of other things. I think a case can be made that, without the efforts of those dumb, illiterate folks who stumbled through the centuries of the "Dark" Middle Ages, we may have just lost most of the knowledge that proceeded it. Maybe what the "historians" have to say should sometimes, like statistics, be taken with the proverbial grain of salt? One great point that the article barely touched on was the important contribution of the "lowly" common foot soldier - the guys with the spears, axes, bows, sticks, farm tools, etc. Without them many battles would not have been won. But, this may be a reflection of a prejudice common to "historians", then and now. That the common folk/soldiers were there for window dressing, to provide a majestic flavor to the scene. It's the knights, nobles, kings that win the battles afteral. Even today we hear of General so-and-so winning in Iraq or Afganistan, as if the regular grunt wasn't there except maybe to provide flavor. We only hear of their feats by listening to the stories of our fathers, uncles, sisters, etc. Or reading of their stories on threads like our current SBG thread about the World Wars. Yeah, knights were important, but so are armored vehicles today - but they could be defeated by the regular Joes of the time. And, of course, wars then as now had to be planned by the big guys, but without the common soldier, they ain't gonna be won. Here is a piece of a painting of a scene from the 100 Years War portraying peasants dealing with a "tank" that I found interesting. Karma 2 U.
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Post by rammstein on Sept 17, 2008 18:28:49 GMT
Thanks for the karma and I'm glad you've all enjoyed it!
Not like I have anything better to do in this 3 hour class I'm in at the moment ;D ;D ;D
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Post by hotspur on Sept 17, 2008 19:07:54 GMT
Hi Alvin, Especially if taken out of context or one time period assessed to another. For instance, I know of very few who would refer to the 14th and 15th centuries as having anything to do with a dark ages reference. Past the mid-point of the medieval (middle ages) period if you ask me. The bubonic (black) plauge and the black knight but hardly a time of discontinuity in enlightenment which more properly is (as you mentioned) after the decline of Rome. However, most would regard the formation of the Holy Roman Empire heralding the true end of the "Dark Ages". This quite predating the Norman conquest, various crusades and certainly centuries before the hundred years war. Fourth to ninth century really better ecompassing what some refrence as the "Dark Ages" but even that really better referenced as the migration era, times a viking and a growth of international commerce, developing hard currencies and taxes. Another link for students www.fordham.edu/halsall/Sbook.htmlA glimpse through many period sources here as well. Register and you can build your own library of articles and abstracts www.british-history.ac.uk/Of course, there are countless online libraries through various intitutions now as well. Google Books is growing expotentially. Grayson, while you are killing time, you might scope out if you are eligible for JSTOR access. There are some great discussions ongoing there I can only peek in a window of. In reality, if one looks at even those few centuries, it really wasn't as dark as often presented. A terrific title is Henri Pirenne's title Mohamed and Charlemagnewww.amazon.com/Mohammed-Charlemagne-Henri-Pirenne/dp/0486420116It well discusses what was going on around the hub of commerce, religions and the growth of European society. I honestly feel the moinker of Dark Ages best disregarded and an artifact of earlier historical research where the darkness better represented knowledge of those researchers and not society of the first mellenium (as we now know it to be). Cheers Hotspur; no tress were harmed in the formation of ths response but a great number of electrons were horribly disturbed
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2008 19:09:27 GMT
Danke Rammstein...ist sehr gut ..ja
(Thanks Rammstein...is very good..yes)
+1 Karma
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Post by YlliwCir on Sept 17, 2008 20:14:42 GMT
Hey, Alvin, isn't that a DSA Black Knight the "tank" is weilding?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2008 6:01:19 GMT
Maybe what the "historians" have to say should sometimes, like statistics, be taken with the proverbial grain of salt? Well, if one understands what statistics are then there isn't a problem! Problems start when people who don't understand statistics start to misrepresent their meaning.
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Post by alvin on Sept 18, 2008 15:03:23 GMT
Maybe what the "historians" have to say should sometimes, like statistics, be taken with the proverbial grain of salt? Well, if one understands what statistics are then there isn't a problem! Problems start when people who don't understand statistics start to misrepresent their meaning. Vyapada - My belief and point exactly. Hi Hotspur - As per my PM, I understood completely that the so-called Dark Ages are not considered a part of the Middle Ages by "historians", and that the 100 Years War is included within the period called the Middle Ages - not the so-called Dark Ages. I apparently wasn't clear in my post - sorry. But thank you for "correcting" me and for providing the educational internet websites - very interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2008 15:40:12 GMT
I thought it was well understood by now that the Dark Ages were "dark" because we have relatively little in the way of the written word surviving from that era, not because technology somehow slowed down or disappeared. Along the same lines I suppose different people have different standards but I would hardly call the Romans "enlightened."
At any rate the martial scene in the West was very dynamic with weapons, armor and tactics radically evolving at a quick pace. I found it very surprising when I began studying Eastern arms and armor to see that aside from a few relatively minor modifications the essential forms of the dominant arms and armor were of a type that was once common in the West but long, long ago. For instance I've been fascinated by the sword of Goujian recently. Its blade form is essentially that of a carp's tongue sword known from the 8th century B.C. The similarities between the kabuto with menpo and the Sutton Hoo helmet are striking, especially when you see the sorts of helmets that were popular East of the Urals during the space of time between the two. Lamellar armor was of course known and obsolescent in the West from quite an early time compared to the East. It seems that everyone started with the same arms and armor and those which are truly unique to a given culture came later.
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Post by rammstein on Sept 18, 2008 15:47:08 GMT
Am I dreaming? I swear my karma was at 53 yesterday how is it at 52?
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Post by alvin on Sept 18, 2008 15:48:22 GMT
There, now wake up and go to class !!
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Post by rammstein on Sept 18, 2008 15:49:39 GMT
lmao...
I DID just wake up, class is in 40 minutes. My favorite one, actually - Early Crusades!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2008 15:54:00 GMT
Lamellar armour is brilliant, if I had to choose armour to wear into a battle it would be fishscale lammelar made of steel and leather reminiscent of Byzantine armour.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2008 19:10:22 GMT
Lamellar armour is brilliant, if I had to choose armour to wear into a battle it would be fishscale lammelar made of steel and leather reminiscent of Byzantine armour. I'd have to take titanium scales over welded titanium rings, over leather:D.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2008 19:57:26 GMT
titanium scales would be awesome
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