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Post by durinnmcfurren on Oct 4, 2021 20:41:36 GMT
So I have an historical question here.
What kinds of weapons did the Germanic peoples have in the 1st century AD? We know pretty well what the Romans had, of course. But what would their opponents in northern Europe have been using? Did they use something similar to the Roman weapons? How much do we know about this?
I know a lot more about viking era and migration era swords. When it comes to this time period, I'm really quite ignorant. So any pointers to places I can find more information would be great!
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Post by dwilson on Oct 4, 2021 23:07:53 GMT
Other than weapons gained through trade or battle (including Roman weapons), at this time, native Germanic peoples would have been limited in terms of resources for weapons (later in history, Germany was a source of high-quality steels, but not at this time). The primary weapon would have been a framea, a short spear with a smallish iron head used for thrusting or throwing (I believe Caesar said that some of these spears were simple sharpened stakes with no metal head, but that might be hyperbole). The native Germanic sword was a short, single-edge chopping weapon, a sort-of "proto sax" (Albion makes a version of this called the Cherusker), often referred to as a "war knife". Other than that, clubs would have been common. Shields were large and either oval or hexagonal. Armor was very limited; if you had any, it was most certainly imported.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 5, 2021 12:16:27 GMT
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Post by Ramsay318 on Oct 5, 2021 13:05:20 GMT
My time has come! I actually have studied the Teutoburg battle for a long while, including getting a grant to go study at the museum they have outside of Osnabruck in time for the 2000th anniversary, so this is an exciting question for me.
For the higher up members of the Germans, like Arminius, it was likely that they did have at least a few weapons similar to what the Romans carried, as they were auxiliary commanders and (in Arminius's case) nobles of Rome. Pugio daggers were probably easy to find as well, as they would have been highly valued trade items. Other leaders likely had short swords or long war knives made of iron in the Germanic pattern (check out the Albion Cherusker). However, most of the warriors likely just had larger knives, axes, or spears made of iron or bronze. Metallurgy was not well established in Germania at the time, so it is unlikely that everyone had all of the above. Additionally, to equip such a large force, it is likely that they mass-produced fire-hardened wooden javelins and short spears, especially given that the main crux of the ambush (aside from surprise) was attacking from a semi-fortified and elevated position. Missile weapons were very important, but you wouldn't want to go hurling iron and bronze in the opening volleys.
Defensively, leather armor and wooden shields were the go to items for close combat. However, due to the rains that occur almost daily in that area at that time of year, they may not have used much of either to reduce encumbrance and avoiding a restricted range of motion. But, like the javelins, the shields were likely mass-produced to gear up a lot of people in a short time, so wattle is the most likely candidate. This may have also helped avoid the waterlogging that impacted the Roman shields, giving the Germans even more of an edge.
Hope this helps.
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Post by durinnmcfurren on Oct 5, 2021 13:37:19 GMT
My time has come! I actually have studied the Teutoburg battle for a long while, including getting a grant to go study at the museum they have outside of Osnabruck in time for the 2000th anniversary, so this is an exciting question for me. For the higher up members of the Germans, like Arminius, it was likely that they did have at least a few weapons similar to what the Romans carried, as they were auxiliary commanders and (in Arminius's case) nobles of Rome. Pugio daggers were probably easy to find as well, as they would have been highly valued trade items. Other leaders likely had short swords or long war knives made of iron in the Germanic pattern (check out the Albion Cherusker). However, most of the warriors likely just had larger knives, axes, or spears made of iron or bronze. Metallurgy was not well established in Germania at the time, so it is unlikely that everyone had all of the above. Additionally, to equip such a large force, it is likely that they mass-produced fire-hardened wooden javelins and short spears, especially given that the main crux of the ambush (aside from surprise) was attacking from a semi-fortified and elevated position. Missile weapons were very important, but you wouldn't want to go hurling iron and bronze in the opening volleys. Defensively, leather armor and wooden shields were the go to items for close combat. However, due to the rains that occur almost daily in that area at that time of year, they may not have used much of either to reduce encumbrance and avoiding a restricted range of motion. But, like the javelins, the shields were likely mass-produced to gear up a lot of people in a short time, so wattle is the most likely candidate. This may have also helped avoid the waterlogging that impacted the Roman shields, giving the Germans even more of an edge. Hope this helps. Thank you!
What about Celtic swords? There were Celtic tribes throughout central Europe, and they were rather famous for their swordmaking among the Romans, but maybe that was a century or two later?
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Post by Ramsay318 on Oct 7, 2021 3:55:15 GMT
Well, La Tene culture was fading around the time of the battle, with the Romans conquering their way through La Tene lands in Gaul and Hispania. It did stetch into Germania, but was not as prevalent there as the native Germanic cultures. The Celtiberians did give Rome the gladius hispaniensis, which had evolved into the Mainz gladius and was starting to evolve into the Fulham gladius around this time. So, in a way, yes there were Celtic swords present, but through a filter of Roman conquest some two centuries prior. I do not recall off the top of my head if there are any Celtic style weapons found in Germania, but I do not believe that any such weapons have been unearthed at the site of the Teutoburg battle.
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Post by pellius on Oct 7, 2021 11:28:11 GMT
My time has come! I actually have studied the Teutoburg battle… Cool! Thanks for the info.
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Post by durinnmcfurren on Oct 8, 2021 20:19:09 GMT
Well, La Tene culture was fading around the time of the battle, with the Romans conquering their way through La Tene lands in Gaul and Hispania. It did stetch into Germania, but was not as prevalent there as the native Germanic cultures. The Celtiberians did give Rome the gladius hispaniensis, which had evolved into the Mainz gladius and was starting to evolve into the Fulham gladius around this time. So, in a way, yes there were Celtic swords present, but through a filter of Roman conquest some two centuries prior. I do not recall off the top of my head if there are any Celtic style weapons found in Germania, but I do not believe that any such weapons have been unearthed at the site of the Teutoburg battle. Thanks for all the great info!
I'm working my way through a book on the battle, but it is a bit slow going, because the book is in German, and my German is not the best.
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Post by joeb on Oct 11, 2021 3:30:24 GMT
Normally I hate to post a website on another website, but there are some good pics here. www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?/topic/14821-exploring-the-germanic-single-edge-sword/Material culture transfers, especially arms and armor, being a common trend everywhere in ancient Europe makes me feel that it would be very very odd for swords/longish war knives not to be somewhat common among the Germanic peoples of the time and not just for the leaders as they were common to peoples all around them. The Gauls in their most vigorous period sacked Rome, threatened Delphi in Greece and conquered central Anatolia...yet were never able to push the Germanic tribes too far off the Rhine and there must be a reason for that. Some Germanic tribes raided deeply into Gaulish territory and annihilated a Roman army. I can't believe they did that with just fire hardened spears and few swords. Also, we need to keep in mind that bronze Naue II swords are well attested in Germanic territories and when the Iron Age started they made Naue II's out of iron like everyone else, so knowledge of making indigenous high quality swords was certainly not unknown to them.
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