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Post by jimmythedonut on Oct 1, 2021 15:49:58 GMT
Hello once again everyone, I am sorry to bother you all. I am looking at picking up another sword as part of a "group buy" (all for myself :DDD). I found what looks like a French M1822 listed and it is a reasonable price (350 Euro give or take) but there's something ...off... on it IMO. Granted, I know next to nothing on French swords and the patterns that were exported with slight variations so I am reaching out here first for advice. The blade DOES have the secondary Montmorency fuller down on the blade, it has the initial square ricasso before dipping into the fuller gently which I think was the style pre-1850(?), the leather washer looks entirely new (not a dealbreaker at all). The grip however seems to be a bit too shaped with too few grooves in it for the wire, all examples I've seen have more grooves/wire in it. Additionally it's shiny enough I can't discount it as plastic. Scabbard is in..."well it comes with a scabbard"...condition, 2 rings which I think is also the earlier style. Am I reading too much into this? Is this simply an accepted variant of a sword that was made for decades? Is this an export model for some other country instead? Let me know what the general consensus is, I've attached the requisite photos and no, there aren't any of the spine or stamps. Thank you kindly!
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 1, 2021 17:06:17 GMT
If there are any stampings please show. Also is there any markings on the spine?
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Post by jimmythedonut on Oct 1, 2021 17:38:33 GMT
There might be but the seller is not responding to my request. I may hold off on this, have found some others for a similar price and more than that, I completely forgot I have a pair of Swiss 1842/52 trooper & officer's sabres coming in which are 1822 clones. But that will be part of a very fun upcoming project with all the Swiss swords I own!
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 1, 2021 17:47:22 GMT
“There might be but the seller is not responding to my request.” That might be a clue in itself.
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Post by pellius on Oct 1, 2021 18:17:26 GMT
Looks like an officer grip without the officer filigree in the brass.
Without more info, my guess is a Prussian copy made as a US m1860.
Also, the curved fuller termination at the ricasso is a feature of later models.
Still, looks like a nice saber. As pgandy said, though, a seller that won’t respond isn’t a good sign.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2021 18:46:43 GMT
Looks like an officer grip without the officer filigree in the brass. Without more info, my guess is a Prussian copy made as a US m1860. Also, the curved fuller termination at the ricasso is a feature of later models. Still, looks like a nice saber. As pgandy said, though, a seller that won’t respond isn’t a good sign. Not a US light cavalry with a horn grip. There was never a designation such as an m1860 for the light cavalry swords. It is strictly a modern collector's misnomer.
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Post by pellius on Oct 1, 2021 19:12:16 GMT
… Without more info, my guess is a Prussian copy made as a US m1860. … There was never a designation such as an m1860 for the light cavalry swords. It is strictly a modern collector's misnomer. True, true; although modern folks will generally know what you’re talking about when you use the term.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2021 19:16:24 GMT
While ignoring the development.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2021 19:24:56 GMT
Let me put is this way. I have a 2004 Ford Taurus station wagon. Can you please tell me what color it is and when it last had an oil change?.
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Post by pellius on Oct 1, 2021 19:42:26 GMT
While ignoring the development. Yes; correct. Indeed, while ignoring quite a number of things for the sake of brevity and convenience. Not sure I get your point regarding your Ford. I suppose if I spoke of your station wagon, we both would know the other details regarding make, model and year. If the time since an oil change was important to our discussion, then I would imagine that the discussion would turn to that. Anyway, thank you for the info, as always.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2021 20:15:34 GMT
While ignoring the development. Yes; correct. Indeed, while ignoring quite a number of things for the sake of brevity and convenience. Not sure I get your point regarding your Ford. I suppose if I spoke of your station wagon, we both would know the other details regarding make, model and year. If the time since an oil change was important to our discussion, then I would imagine that the discussion would turn to that. Anyway, thank you for the info, as always. Someone posts a picture of a sword. It clearly follows a pattern but we have no more information given. That leaves conjecture and guesswork. There are times when just a descriptive can nail an ID but when guesswork and conjecture are the further clues, 20 questions ensue. Someone has presented an object and states little other information is available. Not quite blind mans bluff but if one researched with facts, one could probably come up with my car's color and when I last had the oil changed. The brevity and convenience on nomenclature breeds a superficial knowledge of any subject. There were deliveries of the contracted US light cavalry (following the US m1840) before 1860 and the army ordnance never, ever, describes an m1860 cavalry sword. It may seem I'm picking nits but then how many here consider Lynn Thompson's m1917 cutlass accurate in description. The m1860 cavalry label is just one label that could really be educated out of popular use. I'll know what people mean when they use it and is is fewer letters than light cavalry. The humped grips for the French mle1822 light cavalry swords did develop as for officers swords. Black horn as well. With no marks available, I'd be the last to point to Prussian made. We don't even have the listing for how it is described. It is not like the other sword posted to the beginners section that offered all the clues needed. Cheers GC
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Post by treeslicer on Oct 1, 2021 20:58:47 GMT
Yes; correct. Indeed, while ignoring quite a number of things for the sake of brevity and convenience. Not sure I get your point regarding your Ford. I suppose if I spoke of your station wagon, we both would know the other details regarding make, model and year. If the time since an oil change was important to our discussion, then I would imagine that the discussion would turn to that. Anyway, thank you for the info, as always. Someone posts a picture of a sword............. That is infinitely preferable to the ones who don't, which we get entirely too many of. IMHO, especially in the more nebulous categories (like nihonto), one is too many.
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Post by Pino on Oct 1, 2021 21:25:39 GMT
Dudes chill out a bit, this is clearly just a French NCO & Officer's private purchase sword made in the second half of the 19th cent and beginning of the 19th cent, modelled after the 1822 LC sword; these were made with straight or curved blades.
Extremely common in France. And for 350euros, extremely overpriced btw.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2021 22:05:46 GMT
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Post by eastman on Oct 2, 2021 3:04:23 GMT
hate to say it, but you'll probably get people to stop saying "m1860" right after they stop calling it "chainmail" and calling pattern-welded blades "Damascus Steel"
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Post by jimmythedonut on Oct 2, 2021 5:06:59 GMT
I apologize for the inadvertent shenanigans this post caused, is there anywhere that has a good account on the 1822 and the various evolutions and "clones" of it used?
Additionally, if $350 was too much for it, I do not see them going for much less anywhere. Granted I live in the US and am currently being bent over a barrel with shipping but does anyone have recommendations for places to look for some French models? I have an 1845 Warrant Officers sword I'll be getting soon (that needs some TLC) and the Belgian clone which uses an 87cm blade and I have quite fallen in love with their mid-century hilt designs, wouldn't like getting a few more of their ornate brass hilt models for funsies and to show off to my HEMA club.
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Post by pellius on Oct 2, 2021 13:29:18 GMT
Here on the forum, there are a few write-ups here: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/55136/categorized-index-antique-reviews-writeupsScroll down to France/Cavalry. Not a bad starting point. Serious collectors move on up to books pretty quickly. There seems to be a few go-to books on French sabers. The serious collectors seem to learn from reading the books, collecting and handling actual artifacts, and through discussion with others that are in the know. All are a bit pricey in their own way. I can mostly only afford the latter, which is only expensive in ego-healing time. Pino definitely knows his stuff. Fwiw, I’m also in the US, and haven’t seen French cav sabers go for much less than that at retail in the US lately. If you have a sporting nature or business outlook, auctions can go for less, especially in Europe.
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Post by jimmythedonut on Jan 14, 2022 19:01:25 GMT
Well the good/bad news is this model will be arriving shortly, I picked up 4 Swedish swords (artillery sabre, infantry sabre, cavalry pallasch, and mounted artillery sabre), 1 1821 British Light Cavalry Sabre made sometime in the 1820s/30s in acceptable condition, and this one, and 2 Swedish books on military sabres. I look forward to seeing what I can find on it.
I must confess coming into antique sword collecting I didn't expect to find French swords this good, I have to apologize for being an Anglo snob. Though now the question is, are British swords going to compare to the lofty heights I have for them in my brain>
Stay tuned!
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Post by bas on Jan 14, 2022 19:45:45 GMT
I must confess coming into antique sword collecting I didn't expect to find French swords this good, I have to apologize for being an Anglo snob. Though now the question is, are British swords going to compare to the lofty heights I have for them in my brain> I think people get too caught up in the Anglo - French propaganda and forget that France was a significant super power in Europe and the rest of the world for a majority of post classical history. There are reasons why a lot of French military technology was copied around the world.
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Post by pellius on Jan 14, 2022 20:47:01 GMT
Wow, Jimmy. Nice acquisitions.
I hope to eventually get a few British sabers, but I seem to be stuck on the mainland for the foreseeable future.
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