Meditations on mastery

I had to rewatch the video so many times before my mind actually registered what happened

That is a fair critique, and I can't answer it. I suppose my take away is if we, ourselves, were to attempt a sub-1 second draw and cut through a target no larger than 1cm, how many takes would we need?

That's still fair and honest.

What I was trying to get at by implication that I seem to be doing poorly at is the importance of qualified instruction and lots of practice.

I try to be delicate in wording things, but I know a lot of people want to buy a sharp sword, a real "Samurai" or "Ninja" sword to have fun cutting things. Many of us advise caution with self-learning, but this trick is beyond that. Some videos uploaded by out members show them missing milk bottle sized targets. So, my intended point was, if your blade isn't going where you intend it to, what are you really doing? Is that swordsmanship or something lesser and more dangerous.

Again, for a firearms analogy, I always say there is no such thing as a double-tap... only two aimed shots fired in rapid succession. Now, I still see a lot of people at the range slapping the trigger twice as fast as they can. The target, or sometimes the ceiling, indicates how effective the second shot is. What professionals and competitors do is track the front sight during their follow-through as the action cycles and fire again from reset when proper sight picture returns. This can be done quite rapidly with solid fundamentals and lots of practice.

So, to be crass, do those of us who practice cutting work to become swordsmen, or are they building potentially dangerous habits by just trying to hit a "thing" somewhere? Is hack-and-slash any more responsible than a wannabe blasting at a range?

Again, apologies for the bluntness. It is my fault for not being able to convey the thought more subtly.

IMHO, shows control that's challenging to master, but in itself, a vain circus trick like spinning noto, and better shown by precise cuts on a target.

"Tenshin Ryu Hyoho" are a modern creation, based in a lot of fantasy and very flashy methods designed to impress people... from a koryu perspective, they have any number of issues. So, yeah, Treeslicer is absolutely right in that it's a fairly vain exercise aiming to impress, as, well, that's Tenshin Ryu in a nutshell. Which is cool in it's own way, I guess... it's a great base if you want to get into chanbara and tate (Japanese stage fighting)... but has little resemblance to Classical Japanese arts.

That said, plenty of people like them (even if they aren't entirely clear on what's being learnt and shown), and they certainly do look good and fancy... I can certainly see the appeal of such tricks... but it's not overly impressive to me. I'd be more impressed if there was actual hara behind the cut, rather than just arms, and a better sense of distance. Fancy,but (as far as swordsmanship), mostly useless.

Cutting anywhere you want, when you want is exactly the point.

To be honest, I was inspired to share this video after watching another forum member's video of him trying to pickle chip a milk jug. He made several cuts, to be sure, but missed the target half or more of his attempts.

Control over your tool is important, whether it is blade or ballistic.

What is probably surprising is that, in almost every case in this thread, I have agreed at least in part if not in whole with people's criticisms. I am especially excited to have you amongst our board members as you have a solid background in a JSA I was rather unacquainted with until recently. My background is low skill level and no official rank in Toyama Ryu and Muso Shinden Ryu, so I certainly agree that a lot of what these Tenshin Ryu folk do is very... odd... when compared to what my Sensei taught.

The title about Mastery, and my purpose for this thread, seems to have failed to translate over the web. Is this a trick rather than a cut that would function well against a target? Yes, I agree with you that it is. However, I found this trick illustrated a point that I felt needed reinforcement at the time the thread was made. Without that context, and even with it for some, my intended meaning was lost.

If you were lurking these forums for a while before you signed up, you'll have noticed the great number of folks who want to buy a katana, especially using the phrases "battle ready" or "real Samurai sword", so they can immediately start backyard cutting. Now, everyone is free to do what makes them happy as long as they do not harm others but several of us tried to discourage this approach (or from trying to learn JSA from DVD's or videos alone, like the Tenshin Ryu material out there).

What I intended new folks to meditate on is, if you aren't putting your steel where you want it to be, what are you doing? Can we call that swordsmanship? Are you training good habits or bad? With no formal instruction, is it possible you are creating safety risks to yourself and any bystanders? My opinion is untrained swinging with a margin of error as large as a milk jug is not swordsmanship in any meaningful sense, you may improve through trial and error but are reinforcing a poor foundation, and that most importantly there are safety concerns. As we say in the firearms world, "There is a lawyer tied to every bullet, and firearms to not have 'recall' buttons."

So, this trick shows an individual who has studied diligently under official instructors for years. Yes, his ryuha is controversial, but what he does he can do with control. While a trick, I argue it is more impressive to NOT hit either water bottle with so narrow a margin of error than to MISS an entire water bottle as a self-taught cutter. My intent was to bring focus onto the control over cut angles beyond just swinging to cut "something" as a necessary goal and component of safe practice.

To summarize, yes, I agree with you. This thread, in temporal context, was meant for those who expressed anger at forum members who, like yourself, have legitimate training and cautioned against self-teaching for safety reasons. In this way, my intent was to ask, "Have you attained sufficient mastery over your own craft that you are ready for tameshigiri, or are you handling a live blade like a baseball bat?" And, secondarily, if you are winging it, are you creating risks to yourself and others that you are unaware of which would have been caught and corrected by an instructor when you were still learning on bokken or Iaito?

I know not everyone has access to qualified Sensei. I am saddened to learn there is no official school of your lineage in my country, but have to accept that. Not everyone can afford an extended pilgrimage to be uchideshi at a respected school. Right now, I can't afford to train in another country, but my old Sensei's school is just one hour away, so I'm ok. I wish Budo was more accessible, and I'm sorry it isn't. I don't have an easy answer for those with no legitimate training nearby. However, I recommend caution if you are new and ask that you please, at least, start with bokken.

Not to be judgemental, but what is next? A melon on the tummy cut? An apple on the head cut?
The skill is impressive.
The judgement to do a public showing of such an unsafe practice is really bad.
It would be just as technically impressive if the bottles were held thus in two vises or other mechanical hold.
The skill demonstrated is the ability to control the cut to the point it can pass between the two bottles without cutting them.
Impressive! A light year above my own.
But posting that demo publically?
Very irresponsible.
In today's sue-happy society, I can just see some kid lopping the hand off another kid and the video posters and participants getting sued by the victim's family (and hungry lawyers)

(Sorry, haven't figured out how to break up the quotes here yet...)

First off, gotta say I like the way you think. Let's see if we can take this paragraph by paragraph, so hopefully it'll follow along.

Yeah, a lot of what the Tenshin Ryu folk do is... odd, from a traditional or classical perspective. It's a focus on appearance, as well as trying to have an answer for every possible situation, combined with a lack of understanding of the basic tenets of combative ri-ai as well as a host of other facets... so, yeah. Classical arts tend more towards a few ideas that can be adapted to multiple areas, not multiple different ideas, and the focus is on function over form (aesthetics play a role, obviously, but to focus on them as a priority is not the way these arts work), so it's not surprising to view Tenshin Ryu that way from a MSR background.

Regarding your intent here, all cool. It's probably no surprise to you that such "battle ready" wishes are far from the sole domain of this forum... my personal railing against such fantasies can be somewhat unforgiving, ha! So, at it's heart, I agree with your premise and ideals... I suppose the biggest difference is in the mentality of what is being done and why... and, from my perspective and observation, this is why such a divide comes up.

The kind of person (as much as you can generalise these things) that is wanting a "real samurai sword", something that's "battle-ready" or similar, to practice "swordsmanship" and do some (backyard) cutting, realistically, is not someone who would be found in a legitimate school. In fact, one of the easiest ways to put a warning sign over your head in a classical school is to say you want to be a swordsman, or learn to use a sword, or similar... we're simply not interested in that. People who come to me to learn "swordsmanship", typically, don't get past the interview process... if they do, they tend not to last long without either changing completely in their approach, or simply leaving/drifting out. It may sound odd for a guy who teaches three sword arts, but if you want to be a swordsman, I'm not overly interested in teaching you... come to me because you're interested in studying the ryu I teach, that's a different story...

So, what does this have to do with your idea of being a swordsman, and it's relationship to the exercise shown? That's a good, and reasonable question. Simply put, as you highlight in your explanation here, context is everything. The Tenshin Ryu exercise is dismissed by practitioners of sword arts (legitimate), along with pretty much all Tenshin Ryu material, for a range of reasons, the big one being that it's missing the point entirely of such studies. I mentioned in my first post in this thread that this is not what would be considered anything of value when it comes to legitimate swordsmanship skills, as it's an action in a vacuum... it's little more than swinging a sword down in a straight line. Is that an important skill to have when studying a sword art? Yes, yes it is. However it needs to be in a context (application)... for example, in HNIR, we begin each practice with a few basic cuts, one of which is Shomen Giri (done in the HNIR fashion, of course)... in Katori Shinto Ryu, we begin each session with many repetitions of maki-uchi (the basic version of shomen cutting in the school), up to 200 per class in Japan, as well as a range of other cuts and kamae... these actions enable us to work on the control, angle, line, extension, range, body movement, co-ordination, footwork, and more of the specific methods found in these schools... meaning that the Tenshin Ryu method, being a focus on one aspect only to the exclusion of many other aspects, makes it a largely useless exercise. Additionally, the bottles are little more than props in this regard, and don't add much to the exercise itself (other than a visual check). Just as an aside, the hall we use for HNIR and TSKSR training has a couple of basketball hoops (it's a school gym hall), with a loose string or two hanging down... so I practice my fundamental cuts by aiming to strike the string... just if you want an example of another "accuracy" exercise. Now, if our young Tenshin guy was also employing his hips, rotating his body, shifting his weight, manipulating both his arms in opposite ways to each other, as happens in an actual cut, then it'd be much harder for him to be so accurate... here, there's nothing to make it particularly difficult.

So I get what your saying... the catch is, sadly, that people who agree with you will agree with you, as their experience will bear out the reality of it, and people who disagree will disagree with you, as their experience will bear out their perceptions... the "self taught backyard guy hacking at milk bottles" won't see anything wrong with that... especially if they manage to cut through the bottles... after all, what they're doing must work, otherwise the sword wouldn't have cut through, right? Who needs all that training and being told how to do things if you can just do it already? Must be a good swordsman, right!

The difference is really about studying a sword system, and just wanting to hack things up. Realistically, swords cut. That's what they're designed to do, and they do it quite efficiently, even with a minimum of skill. Can you botch it? Yep. And you could damage yourself, the sword, or anything around you... but, even with a slightly off-line sword, a sharp edge, swung with some strength and speed, impacting a relatively soft target or surface, will cut. So, great, well done backyard guys... thing is... that's the same as thinking whacking a tennis ball against a wall is like playing a 5 set tournament... there's a superficial relationship, and some minimal transference between the two, but that's about it. Thing is, when it comes to something more esoteric as studying classical sword arts, without knowing what it's about, and basing their understanding on their uneducated beliefs that it's about "cutting things", then they will reinforce their own beliefs by cutting things... 

Studying a sword system is more about the tactical, philosophical, mental, cultural, and (in cases) political approach, which is studied via techniques that employ a sword in a combative context. And the lack of that is why the Tenshin Ryu exercise fails to impress most JSA practitioners. And also why you won't get backyard cutters either understanding the problem, or even recognising there is one.

I'll give you one more camp, perhaps not really represented here (understandable, considering the basic premise of the forum itself), which is practitioners of Japanese Sword Arts who will ask why you even "need" (or want) a live blade sword in the first place... okay, yeah, probably the wrong room for that, ha!

Look, for all the perceived "snobbish" tendencies of, particularly, koryu practitioners (not entirely unfair or unfounded, to be honest), our biggest concerns are often for a misrepresentation of the authentic traditions... if someone wants to grab a broom handle and imitate Darth Maul, or do XMA style "tricking martial arts", complete with throwing the sword in the air, doing gymnastics, then catching (with all the requisite intense facial expressions and over-the-top screaming), or even just have fun in their backyard, then, hey, go for it guys... but, as soon as you start saying that what you're doing is "the real samurai" approach, or put themselves forth as teaching modern made up things and portraying them as the traditional art of the samurai sword, that we have issues.

I'll be honest... this isn't really an "impressive" skill being shown. Yes, the sword travels down in a pretty much dead straight line... cool, well done... but with so little body movement, it's incredibly easy to do... Tera mentioned that they feel this person "has studied diligently under official instructors for years"... I'd personally doubt that assessment. Maybe a year or two? Dilligently? That's a matter of perspective... the only part of this that would take any kind of work is the draw and raising the sword to jodan in such a relatively short time-frame... once it's in position, the downward cut is really pretty easy for most people to do without much effort or practice. Again, the bottles are more a prop than anything else... and, watching the video in a blown-up format, it becomes clear that they aren't as close as they first appear to be on a website screen... I'd estimate that they're probably close to an inch (a few centimetres) apart.. the angle of the camera seems to be chosen to make them look closer than they are.

All that being said, one thing I'm going to disagree with on this thread is the relative danger of this exercise. Frankly, it's not really filled with much danger, however, there are a few caveats to that. The only danger for the person holding the bottles in this instance would be if the swordsman released the sword and it flew forwards, or, possibly, if the mekugi broke and the blade came away from the handle... with such a controlled action, neither are overtly likely. Additionally, considering the cut is through air, I would doubt we're looking at shinken... it'll be an iaito, where, while the tip can be a bit sharp, that's the only part. There are similar exercises using sheets of newspaper (held by someone in a similar fashion to this) where you use a bokuto or iaito to "cut" the paper... another way of checking the line of your cuts in a practical way.

The bigger danger would be, as you suggest, people watching, thinking that a shinken is used, and messing themselves up... there's a relatively infamous video that I'm sure many have seen here, or some wonderfully drunk guys messing around with a cheap cutter (sharp sword), and one misses his target, and cuts his friends thumb off... sadly, it is very difficult to legislate against stupidity, so... Additionally, I'd point out that, yes, that would open up someone to potentially being sued, however that is, by definition, a civil suit, and not one that overly affects anyone other than those involved, so... yeah. If they want to gradually reduce the number of dangling parts of their bodies, okay. 

What this takes us to is understanding sword etiquette and safety (etiquette in this case referring to proper attentive behaviour, rather than the more esoteric, often Shinto or Buddhist imbued rituals, although this is a big part of them as well). I get that this is probably preaching to the choir here, but most sword etiquette is about not unduly injuring those around you... if you're stupid enough to cut/injure/main/dismember yourself, well... that's on you. And that's pretty much the attitude of these arts. To that end, I'm not that fussed about putting it out publicly here... they've done it for attention, and people are just as likely to copy the latest movie character as this... in fact, I would suggest more likely.