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Post by RambleTree on Jul 20, 2021 15:36:27 GMT
Hi folks, this is something I've been thinking about for a while. With LG announcing his closing - this leaves a big gap for cutlers and sword tinkerers. I bought a few guards from him, and I believe he was the only public-facing retailer for Printed Armory products.
There are a handful of other options, but have any of these barriers: - high price point. - difficult to actually buy or order anything (ambiguity, clunky online store user experience). - made to fit specific construction types (i.e. SCA sparring blunts, etc.) - not domestic to USA (long shipping times/costs, currency, language barriers, etc.)
The intention of this thread is to bounce ideas around, determine interest, i.e. 'market research', and identify resources. --------------------------------------------- Initial thoughts:
Designs/products:
Option A: Purchase/license the designs/molds from LG/Printed Armory (whoever has actual ownership), and carry on the H/T hilt component lines. Finding a foundry to cast the pieces, and a shop to finish.
and/or Option B: Create new designs. Digital or physical model (3D-printed, or milled - my dad happens to be a mfg. moldmaker). Casting or machining. Probably a combination of both.
Cost effective designs/good price points: One thing that I think is true for a lot of sword enthusiasts dabbling with entry-level swords, is that we don't necessarily have a grinding wheel, drill press, etc. or the space to operate them. What most people can do, however, is mount a vice on a table, and use files/rasps and a Dremel. There are many times I've thought - "Gee, I wish I had a bar of steel for a guard, or disk for a pommel with a tang slot at least started. It wouldn't have to fit perfectly, just enough that I can get a small file in there, but not have to drill holes through steel". I'm probably not the only one.
A lower price point 'economy' model for guards/pommels could have these characteristics: - mild steel. - 2 to 5 basic shapes, for economy of scale. - Exaggerated dimensions, to allow for cutting to length, or shaping as desired by the customer, to fit a wide variety of blades. - Tang slots on the smaller side, so they can be filled/Dremeled (is that a word?) as needed by the customer, to fit a wide variety of blades. - Figure out a 'universal' pommel slot design that can be worked with hand tools to accommodate 'keyed', rod, 'peen-able' or threaded tang designs.
Mid- to higher-ranged components could be: - the existing LG/Printed Armory products. - more finished/shaped versions of the 'economy' stock components.
Business Model and Retail/Ecommerce/Shipping: -- this is where I have specific experience for my Art + Apparel business -RG
- Sourcing in higher volumes for lower cost per piece. - Inventory/stock management. - Modern ecommerce storefront (i.e. Shopify) with clear policies and good user experience. - Possibly selling only hilt components and not blades: Lower liability/insurance expenses. Simplifies shipping costs. - Retail shipping label system (i.e. PirateShip). Boxes/packaging supplies. Minimize shipping costs -and- prices. - Customer service. - Advertising/marketing. Paid ads, content marketing, networking (forums like this). - Email marketing --> this is key. I've probably made more repeat purchases from Knife Center, because I regularly get hit with emails with good offers, new products, news, etc.
-------------------------------------------------------- Totally throwing this out there, to see if anyone else has been mentally chewing on it too.
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Post by RambleTree on Jul 20, 2021 16:04:19 GMT
Another product brainstorm: Generic 'universal' wooden grip cores. Same philosophy as guards/pommels - pre-cut with plenty of room for filing/carving to fit. Grip 'halves', with a tang-channel started, etc. Standard lengths easily cut to size (dagger, arming sword, longsword, big honkin' sword).
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Post by RambleTree on Jul 20, 2021 16:08:12 GMT
Business brainstorm: Wholesale/dropship to other sword retailers (Kult of Athena, etc.) in addition to direct sales.
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LeMal
Member
Posts: 1,085
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Post by LeMal on Jul 20, 2021 18:55:29 GMT
I like Option B
While it's nice to have certain customizing designs, they suffer from the same problem for me that production ones do: not QUITE being what I'm looking for.
Here's a trio of concrete examples.
One, while I lovelovelove the Printed Armory Dunvegan guard in general, it's "arms" are too short for my taste. I had a set (that I ended up using on something else) that I almost used on a fullered HT Bastard blade, and looked very good, but would've looked perfect to me if the arms of the guard were each about a mere inch longer.
In a similar vein, there are a number of even larger H&H or 2H swords, like the HT GSOW, I want a "claymore" guard on--*but w/o the stereotypical quatrefoil ends,* just slightly spatulate swellings instead.
And finally--hugely for me--I very much like (long, straight) guards that do NOT fit the blade and tang tightly, wedged in, but instead in the more commonly "Eastern European" manner sit on the *wood* of the handle. And that includes, even if rather ahistorical, using that construction on straight Euros, longswords, etc.
So what am I to do, lacking (and not wanting) any forge or foundry capabilities? Not a damn thing.
So if you really want a welcome, well-utilized service, give us one that can machine and/or cast designs we provide.
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Post by RambleTree on Jul 20, 2021 19:40:22 GMT
I like Option B While it's nice to have certain customizing designs, they suffer from the same problem for me that production ones do: not QUITE being what I'm looking for. Here's a trio of concrete examples. One, while I lovelovelove the Printed Armory Dunvegan guard in general, it's "arms" are too short for my taste. I had a set (that I ended up using on something else) that I almost used on a fullered HT Bastard blade, and looked very good, but would've looked perfect to me if the arms of the guard were each about a mere inch longer. In a similar vein, there are a number of even larger H&H or 2H swords, like the HT GSOW, I want a "claymore" guard on--*but w/o the stereotypical quatrefoil ends,* just slightly spatulate swellings instead. And finally--hugely for me--I very much like (long, straight) guards that do NOT fit the blade and tang tightly, wedged in, but instead in the more commonly "Eastern European" manner sit on the *wood* of the handle. And that includes, even if rather ahistorical, using that construction on straight Euros, longswords, etc. So what am I to do, lacking (and not wanting) any forge or foundry capabilities? Not a damn thing. So if you really want a welcome, well-utilized service, give us one that can machine and/or cast designs we provide. Nice, thanks for the feedback. I'm considering reaching out to LG, inquiring about his relationship with Printed Armoury, intellectual property considerations, etc. The idea being to have Options A and B. There are probably enough people using the Printed Armoury hilt components on a semi-regular basis (Jesse Belsky comes to mind), who already have jigs for them, that there would probably be a continued market. Unfortunately, I think casting one-off designs would not be a viable business model. That would probably best be accomplished directly between an artisan/foundry and an individual customer. Casting 'blanks' that have basic hilt component functionality, in volume, could be viable. Then ($ ranges hypothetical): - offering as-is for DIY customers ($20 to $50 price range) and/or - offering a line of set designs, machined from the blanks ($40 to $100) and/or - offering custom design services, where 'we' (in-house, contract out?) machine the blanks to customers' specifications. ($100+) The main trick with anything custom, is communication with customers about the desired final form. i.e. reference photos, diagrams, etc. That's a lot of customer service time/labor. And - streamlining it all so it's affordable/profitable . . . Keep the feedback/ideas coming!
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Post by RambleTree on Jul 20, 2021 19:51:09 GMT
And finally--hugely for me--I very much like (long, straight) guards that do NOT fit the blade and tang tightly, wedged in, but instead in the more commonly "Eastern European" manner sit on the *wood* of the handle. And that includes, even if rather ahistorical, using that construction on straight Euros, longswords, etc. A thought for the basic crossguard 'blanks' would be to -not- include an inlet for the blade shoulders. i.e. for flush/pressure fitting the guard on as you mentioned. DIY customers could dremel inlets to fit their specific blades, if desired. The 'standard' line of finished guards could have 'shoulder inlets'. Or, perhaps guards could be offered with the shoulder junction 'flat' or 'inlet'. The main thing being that it's easier, from a production/supply standpoint, to take material away. Get a bunch of blanks made in bulk, and offer progressively more detailed 'add-ons' at different price points. BTW, I'm not an engineer or machinist, so forgive any misuse of terms (and feel free to educate me).
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Post by RambleTree on Jul 20, 2021 20:59:25 GMT
Ultra-basic guard blanks. 2 minute crappy sketch and badly-lit photo: 'Curved' probably more dramatically curved. Stock left relatively thick for shaping into various terminals (claws, spatulae, quatrefoil, etc.). Left relatively high for shaping out a 'tongue'. Downturned/Celtic/Scottish shows tongue as part of the design. You could probably get most medieval crossguard shapes out of these four, with possibly the addition of a 'curved bar' - unless the stock was left sufficiently thick on the 'curved' guard. S-guard would be another matter. A very thick 'bowtie' would allow for removing material on either side to create an S shape. Or cast/machined into a predetermined S shape.
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tera
Moderator
Posts: 1,655
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Post by tera on Jul 20, 2021 21:19:42 GMT
It may be more costly than you'd like, but if you could get someone to 3d model your parts you could source them through Shapeways. They do lost casting of various metals, including silver and gold.
If you did batch runs you'd get better price per unit.
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LeMal
Member
Posts: 1,085
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Post by LeMal on Jul 20, 2021 21:44:23 GMT
Unfortunately, I think casting one-off designs would not be a viable business model. That would probably best be accomplished directly between an artisan/foundry and an individual customer. Yeah, was afraid of that. :/ Be nice if there were a lot more artisans even willing to do that, alas. Well, I've been SOL on that more many decades already, sure I'll survive. ;)
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Post by RambleTree on Jul 20, 2021 22:44:52 GMT
As I'm looking at the basic blank shapes, these could probably be cut out of barstock, or waterjet/plasma cut out of thick sheets . . . Anyone have experience doing this, or ordering at scale (i.e. blade blanks)?
-- but then you're looking at a fair amount of stock removal, depending on how 'unrefined' you'd want to offer them . . .
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Post by RambleTree on Jul 20, 2021 23:09:09 GMT
It may be more costly than you'd like, but if you could get someone to 3d model your parts you could source them through Shapeways. They do lost casting of various metals, including silver and gold. If you did batch runs you'd get better price per unit. Thanks for that info! After some research, it looks like that's where Mike Jia, who designed the Printed Armoury components, is based online. The steel components aren't there, though - I believe he was having those cast from either: - 3D printed waxes, or - waxes made from molds made from a 3D printed master die (?) LG was the online retail outlet for the steel components. BTW, LG is still selling some items via direct communication. The plot thickens . . .
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Post by RambleTree on Jul 20, 2021 23:12:29 GMT
Ultra-simple disc pommel blank For the sake of conversation, a simple disc pommel 'blank', and not so simple tang slot/cavity considerations.
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tera
Moderator
Posts: 1,655
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Post by tera on Jul 20, 2021 23:19:45 GMT
It may be more costly than you'd like, but if you could get someone to 3d model your parts you could source them through Shapeways. They do lost casting of various metals, including silver and gold. If you did batch runs you'd get better price per unit. Thanks for that info! After some research, it looks like that's where Mike Jia, who designed the Printed Armoury components, is based online. The steel components aren't there, though - I believe he was having those cast from either: - 3D printed waxes, or - waxes made from molds made from a 3D printed master die (?) LG was the online retail outlet for the steel components. BTW, LG is still selling some items via direct communication. The plot thickens . . . Usually 3d printing shops will use PLA or a meltable resin and the process is the same as a lost wax casting. Our wedding rings were made that way. If they can do brass, silver, and gold I'd imagine they could iron and steel. Might be worth contacting them over. I will be having my Mon converted to a more three dimensional design and modified to be my tsuba to be printed in iron. Shapeways has 3d Artists who can help you with that step if all you have are concept sketches or a 2d design.
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Post by RambleTree on Jul 21, 2021 14:42:20 GMT
Thanks tera for inspiration on the 3-D printing route. I will definitely start wrapping my head around that! Awesome idea to turn your Mon into a custom tsuba. In the meantime, I just found this shop. Currently inquiring about project quotes for a basic product line, and feasibility/cost of supplying one-off custom pieces for customers (looking at you LeMal ). www.mainlymetals.com/Amazingly, within hiking distance of my art studio. I'm in a village abutting rural/ag/forest/mountains. I'm picturing myself walking around with a backpack, lugging 40 lbs. of guards and pommels back to my studio, like some kind of medieval cutler . . .
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LeMal
Member
Posts: 1,085
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Post by LeMal on Jul 21, 2021 21:05:09 GMT
Thanks tera for inspiration on the 3-D printing route. I will definitely start wrapping my head around that! Awesome idea to turn your Mon into a custom tsuba. In the meantime, I just found this shop. Currently inquiring about project quotes for a basic product line, and feasibility/cost of supplying one-off custom pieces for customers (looking at you LeMal 8-) ). www.mainlymetals.com/Amazingly, within hiking distance of my art studio. I'm in a village abutting rural/ag/forest/mountains. I'm picturing myself walking around with a backpack, lugging 40 lbs. of guards and pommels back to my studio, like some kind of medieval cutler . . . Sweet--keep us updated!
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Post by durinnmcfurren on Jul 21, 2021 21:32:14 GMT
Personally I would love to see somewhere that would be willing to make custom guards and hilts to order. 3d printing metal is a no go for me, but if you were able to do milling or something to make them, you might be able to do a cost effective, albeit not all that cheap, option!
If you were to also be willing to then install them on the blades if the blades are sent to you... all the better!
This would really help for those swords that have guards and pommels that are hard to find.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jul 21, 2021 23:13:52 GMT
The problem is that there would not be enough demand to justify the effort...much less make a living at it.
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Post by RambleTree on Jul 22, 2021 13:38:43 GMT
The problem is that there would not be enough demand to justify the effort...much less make a living at it. True that - I'm thinking as a side/passion project that breaks even, leading to some profits over time. Possibly adding related products, wholesale to sword makers/cutlers and larger retailers. It would all come down to the relationships between demand-cost-quality-retail price, etc. If I were to do this - the nice thing is that I already have an art & apparel studio, shipping supplies, storage space, online store, etc. So, overhead and setup are less of a barrier.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jul 22, 2021 13:44:22 GMT
The problem is that there would not be enough demand to justify the effort...much less make a living at it. True that - I'm thinking as a side/passion project that breaks even, leading to some profits over time. Possibly adding related products, wholesale to sword makers/cutlers and larger retailers. It would all come down to the relationships between demand-cost-quality-retail price, etc. If I were to do this - the nice thing is that I already have an art & apparel studio, shipping supplies, storage space, online store, etc. So, overhead and setup are less of a barrier. What you are describing is a "hobby business" in a "hobby industry"...a VERY unlikely combination for any financial success.
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Post by RambleTree on Jul 22, 2021 14:09:11 GMT
What you are describing is a "hobby business" in a "hobby industry"...a VERY unlikely combination for any financial success. I get what your saying. My measure of success for this hobby/niche 'business' is: - Satisfying project (I just enjoy selling stuff online). - Break even/small profit. I get to play with the toys and spend any profit on related toys. - Fill a product niche in an area that I'm interested in, and have the ability to deliver consistent quality/service (again - something I find satisfaction in). I do appreciate that you may be looking out for my financial interests - don't worry, I'm not thinking of investing any more time/money than I can afford in this idea. It's more of a fun thing. The thread title 'Guard and Pommel business - what would it actually take' - is less about reaping profit, and more about brainstorming what it would take to deliver a good product with a good customer experience, consistently - while hitting the measures of success listed above. Thanks for adding your input, more is certainly welcomed to keep the conversation going.
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