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Post by oos3thoo on Sept 4, 2008 4:24:57 GMT
Why is it Katanas have an awesome price range while being made with awesome steel, yet European swords cost so much and are made with steel, such as 1055? Why can't Euro swords be cheaper, or at least be "upped" to 9260, or even just 1065?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2008 4:32:51 GMT
Something that a lot of smiths keep on saying (online, at least) is that it's not the steel that makes the biggest difference...
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Post by oos3thoo on Sept 4, 2008 4:43:21 GMT
Then why should a higher grade of steel cost more? And why should it matter if a sword is made with T1-tool steel?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2008 4:55:57 GMT
Advertising? There is probably some benefit, but from what I have read there are no super steels... the main thing I have heard that is important is the quality of the heat treat, the consistency of the steel itself (e.g. no slag) and of course the quality of the manufacture of the sword. I'm not sure what you're referring to as a higher grade of steel. The end user costs are probably related to how much the steel costs to manufacture/source and how difficult it is to create a sword from it. Some alloys allow increased elasticity or edge retaining qualities but a great sword can be made with plain old 10xx steels, especially considering a sword is not meant to be used as a baseball bat... I have read that Albion and Jody Sampson uses 1075 (interesting considering the link at the bottom of this post). Arms & Armor seem to have abandoned 1075 and instead use 6150 ( www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=141479#141479). Is one better or worse? Probably not, the difference may be in how they like to create and heat treat their blades and so they have their own preferences. They may even source their steel from different places and so the qualities of their 1075 may be different. Again, from what I've read from smiths online, many will have steels that they like to work with rather than what steels they feel make uberswords. Tool steels are great for tools but how does it really equate to a sword? The properties we see in flex tests don't show what really happens to a sword when it's used, so the only real way to test the differences is to make identical swords of different steels and then test them under the same conditions.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2008 21:16:04 GMT
Higher grade steels cost more because they just do.
Different alloys have steel that will have different properties if they're taken advantage of - but Heat Treating isn't just a one-size-fits-all thing. Just because this company says 5160 and that other one also says 5160 doesn't mean they're going to have steel at the same hardness, or even if it is the samehardness, they might have brought out different properties in the steel.
That being said, something like 9260, if treated properly, will have properties that a steel like 1060 can't have, regardless of heat treat. Is 9260 necessary for an Awesome sword? Not at all. Also, some swords may not even be able to take advantage of the different properties of steel. For example a sword heat treated that ends up say, RC 47-48 might be too soft and ductile to notice the superior toughness of 5160 over 1060. But treated to say, RC 53, 5160 might start shining above 1060. Of course, somebody performing a superior heat-treat on 1060 would probably end up making it better than an average heat treat on 5160.
What it comes down to is that more expensive steels aren't *that* much more expensive than plainer steels. We're talking about paying $50 in raw materials for a sword instead of $35 (just throwing numbers out there). What makes swords of those steels more expensive is the (usually) more involved heat treating process or the extra abrasives one must buy to grind that steel compared to a plainer one, etc.
Executed by a knowledgeable smith to their highest potential, the differences between appropriate steels is marginal - 1060, 6150, 5160, 1075, 9260, L6, O1 - all make awesome blades when they're done right. This one might have a little more wear resistance, or that one might be a little tougher, or whatever. But we're talking about relatively small differences. In other words: 5160 might be tougher than 1060 - but 1060 is already far tougher than it needs to be if it's done right - forged and heat treated properly. 9260 might have a greater ability to elastically deform(resist taking a set) than 1060 - but if 1060 can already take a full base-ball bat swing from a burly guy into chop-block - then what use is the extra expense?
The reason why it matters to a lot of people is perception. It's like buying a really nice sports car that can drive 180 mph and then only using it to drive to work and back - a nice toyota will do it just as well as that fancy chrysler or mazda. Some people will push cars like that to their limit (and beat on steel poles with swords) others will use 'em for what they're designed for (like us martial artists). I wouldn't mind a $4000 custom from some uber smith - but I'm just fine with A&A, Albion, and Atrim level pieces - all made of relatively plain steels. I don't need 9260 or L6 or something uber fancy like that.
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