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Post by Eric Bergeron on Jun 23, 2021 21:13:56 GMT
In this day and age with the steel quality are mono tempered katana blades as good or better then a DH same steel quality katana blade? Why do people get a DH blade? Is it because they want to get a blade like what an antique katana blade was made by? If the steel quality we have now existed back then do you think the Japanese smiths would of made blades as monotempered vs having to dual hardened them?
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Post by Eric Bergeron on Jun 24, 2021 1:45:41 GMT
And as a follow up what do you think is the best mono tempered steel for a katana blade? Is it still 9260?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jun 24, 2021 2:15:00 GMT
If the steel quality we have now existed back then do you think the Japanese smiths would of made blades as monotempered vs having to dual hardened them? Yes, probably. Tempering was far from an exact science, and differential hardening was a safer option than trying to temper reliably. Notably, modern "low tech" blades made using modern spring steel (e.g., recycled vehicle leaf springs), such as kukris and some SE Asian blades, are differentially hardened. You can get consistent temperatures for tempering by using a molten salt or molten lead, but (a) you need to discover that this works, and (b) it's only efficient for large batches. And as a follow up what do you think is the best mono tempered steel for a katana blade? Is it still 9260? 9260 is fine, but depending on what you value, it might not be the "best". 1095 will give a harder (but less tough) blade, which you might think "better". If you're a sailor, you might even prefer a stainless alloy (as the Japanese navy used for some kai-gunto). If you're doing your own heat-treatment at home, it's easier to get it right with 1060 than 9260 (and maybe ease of heat treatment also translates to cheap Chinese-made swords).
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Post by RaylonTheDemented on Jun 24, 2021 2:27:41 GMT
Why do people get a DH blade? Is it because they want to get a blade like what an antique katana blade was made by? The pretty hamon.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jun 24, 2021 3:37:12 GMT
Yes and no to all of it. A medieval Japanese smith would have been over the moon with modern steel, but I think they would have kept a DH design. You have to always keep in mind the cultural traditions of the era and location. Japanese were hyper-traditionalists and it's almost certain they would try to keep their swords looking "traditional".
And it can be argued over the benefit of a hardened edge vs. mono tempered. As mentioned previously, it all depends on what you intend to do with it as a final product. I have both kinds of swords and knives, and my personal preference is for the mono temper for overall durability and strength; but they aren't as good looking as my DH blades.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2021 4:43:31 GMT
I would rather have different hardening on a knife or a short, stout, sword. But when it comes to full length, definitely DH
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Post by borisgimenez on Jun 24, 2021 5:34:48 GMT
Hi, I'm always embarrassed when it comes to one type of blade, DH or TH, which is better than the other. With respect to the purpose of a sword, which is to sever limbs, both serve their purpose. In terms of durability, barring a sloppy blacksmith job, both are durable ... under "normal" conditions of use. Cutting ability has as much to do with the geometry of the blade and the user's form as it does with the degree of sharpness. An anecdote: at the dojo, our sensei's sensei came for a battodo course. He demonstrated with the dojo "when-you-forgot-your" sword, effortlessly cut several tatami mats, and at the end of the demonstration came to the practitioners. He said the blade was blunt. He supported his point by running his fingers over the blade and indeed it was blunt. Much to everyone's surprise seeing the cuts he made. I am talking about "normal" use as a sword is not designed for cutting through metal, gun barrels, tree trunks or doors. And for those who think: armor, it must be remembered that the samurai were equipped with spears and other thrust weapons, and even muskets whose purpose was to take care of the metal shells. And for those who had none of that, just the katana ... well we do as we can ... Today some think that TH blades are preferable because in the event of bad of the blade alignment or in the event of an accidental impact on a bad surface these blades are more resilient. That is true. But we can also tell ourselves that the goal is not to be in bad form or to strike your sword against anything and everything. Of course no one has to practice JSA, and you may just want to have fun with your sword. This is why rather than talking about the "best" type of blade, it is better to think in my opinion: type of sword most suited to your use. As for me, I'm crazy about hamon.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2021 6:37:39 GMT
Hi, I'm always embarrassed when it comes to one type of blade, DH or TH, which is better than the other. With respect to the purpose of a sword, which is to sever limbs, both serve their purpose. In terms of durability, barring a sloppy blacksmith job, both are durable ... under "normal" conditions of use. Cutting ability has as much to do with the geometry of the blade and the user's form as it does with the degree of sharpness. An anecdote: at the dojo, our sensei's sensei came for a battodo course. He demonstrated with the dojo "when-you-forgot-your" sword, effortlessly cut several tatami mats, and at the end of the demonstration came to the practitioners. He said the blade was blunt. He supported his point by running his fingers over the blade and indeed it was blunt. Much to everyone's surprise seeing the cuts he made. I am talking about "normal" use as a sword is not designed for cutting through metal, gun barrels, tree trunks or doors. And for those who think: armor, it must be remembered that the samurai were equipped with spears and other thrust weapons, and even muskets whose purpose was to take care of the metal shells. And for those who had none of that, just the katana ... well we do as we can ... Today some think that TH blades are preferable because in the event of bad of the blade alignment or in the event of an accidental impact on a bad surface these blades are more resilient. That is true. But we can also tell ourselves that the goal is not to be in bad form or to strike your sword against anything and everything. Of course no one has to practice JSA, and you may just want to have fun with your sword. This is why rather than talking about the "best" type of blade, it is better to think in my opinion: type of sword most suited to your use. As for me, I'm crazy about hamon. Would like to see him try that cut on something with thick clothing. Lots of older martial arts like to talk about best case scenario conditions, assuming you have a chance to be picky when you strike and just say stuff like "well if you had the skill" which is just another way of blaming the student instead of the art Of course in the end, it doesn't really matter what you practice, as even iaido has a place, in that unlikely scenario you sit on your knees wirh a sword in your belt, I suppose
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jun 24, 2021 6:55:40 GMT
Again, it all depends. We've had many discussions on this forum about "how sharp is sharp enough". There is no one correct answer because, again, it depends on the concept of end use. Speaking just about the katana, it was traditionally razor sharp. So for sake of continuation of this thread, that will have to be considered the standard.
In this scenario, a DH blade will hold a better razor edge than TH. If you want to be a kat purist, then DH is really the only choice going.
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Post by treeslicer on Jun 24, 2021 7:21:38 GMT
Again, it all depends. We've had many discussions on this forum about "how sharp is sharp enough". There is no one correct answer because, again, it depends on the concept of end use. Speaking just about the katana, it was traditionally razor sharp. So for sake of continuation of this thread, that will have to be considered the standard. In this scenario, a DH blade will hold a better razor edge than TH. If you want to be a kat purist, then DH is really the only choice going. DH also (if you know how to read the information encoded in a hamon) gives you some proof that the blade was actually heat treated at all. The most vituperative recent thread I've seen here was about whether or not a TH blade had been quenched. With DH, there is no question.
On a related issue, I prefer folded to mono for a DH blade on metallurgical grounds (intentionally vague to avoid spending an hour on this). While a TH folded blade has no advantage over mono, for DH it has positive advantages. One which concerns us here is that it promotes the propagation of nie "activities' along the fold lines, giving you an instant read on whether the blade was traditionally water-quenched as it should be.
Chinese DH folded production blades done correctly will display all the activities seen in nihonto (including kinsuji, inazuma, chikei, jinie, sunagashi, etc.). I know this for an inarguable fact because I own a few that do.
While I don't have statistics for it, I have come to associate more active hamon with better sharpness and edge holding. One of the things that instantly got my attention on the Ryujin Hatamoto I was sent (a 1060 mono blade) is the unusually flashy hamon, indicating that it was probably cold-water quenched from a comparatively high temperature (seeing much nie on a mono is rare, usually all you get is a nioiguchi). Lo and behold, it just happens to cut well, and have a higher HRC on the ha than was advertised. Coincidence?
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Post by borisgimenez on Jun 24, 2021 7:57:51 GMT
Would like to see him try that cut on something with thick clothing. Lots of older martial arts like to talk about best case scenario conditions, assuming you have a chance to be picky when you strike and just say stuff like "well if you had the skill" which is just another way of blaming the student instead of the art Of course in the end, it doesn't really matter what you practice, as even iaido has a place, in that unlikely scenario you sit on your knees wirh a sword in your belt, I suppose What I just wanted to say with this example is that there are many factors that go into the effectiveness of a sword. Some strengths can make up for, a little, some "flaws", but there is nothing magic about it. And with thick clothing, there wouldn't have been a cut. It is always better to have a sharp blade rather than a dull one. This is personal, but I find that often (apart from the price) the qualities attributed to TH blades are relative to an atypical use of the katana. Without wanting to be off-topic, a bit like the quality of the steel. Of course, high-end steels are better than “entry-level” 1045 steels. But in the case of "classic" use, we see very little difference in use. In case of abuse, of course it is different. It is up to everyone to consider what is normal use and abuse.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 24, 2021 9:13:25 GMT
If my life would depend on the durability of my sword in battle with all possible abuse (unintentionally hitting armor, ground or wood, blade to blade contact) I'd want to have a modern heat treated TH blade. If possible 9260 from a forge/smith with reliable heat treatment. Isn't CPM 3V the new hot semprini? Classic DH for a nice hamon. What's about a modern DH with the classic hard edge combined with a springy spine instead of the classic softer one?
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Post by Robert in California on Jun 24, 2021 12:22:24 GMT
DH is my preference. Folded DH opens the possibility to hamon activity (better eye candy if nothing else). A weapon can be appreciated for function and beauty, both. TH is well, functional....zzzzzzz. RinC
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jun 24, 2021 13:05:23 GMT
Good point about the hamon showing proof of heat treating. I agree with this. You can determine a lot by examining the hamon and make an educated prediction about it's quality.
But... and there is always a but... if it's about simple reliability and ruggedness (assuming of course it's properly made), then I will choose a modern 9260 TH every time. This is from my own personal experience with the material. I have no paperwork to back it up, just years of beating on the swords with no perceivable damage other than light surface scratches. Yes, it's milk toast plain and boring because there is no activity whatsoever in the metal, but that also makes it a good basis for carving and etching.
Pick your poison. Or pick both. There's nothing saying you can't have a variety of swords under your bed...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2021 14:18:13 GMT
Good point about the hamon showing proof of heat treating. I agree with this. You can determine a lot by examining the hamon and make an educated prediction about it's quality. But... and there is always a but... if it's about simple reliability and ruggedness (assuming of course it's properly made), then I will choose a modern 9260 TH every time. This is from my own personal experience with the material. I have no paperwork to back it up, just years of beating on the swords with no perceivable damage other than light surface scratches. Yes, it's milk toast plain and boring because there is no activity whatsoever in the metal, but that also makes it a good basis for carving and etching. Pick your poison. Or pick both. There's nothing saying you can't have a variety of swords under your bed... That's what I did lol. I got a differently hardened Katana while all the other swords are TH
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Post by paulmuaddib on Jun 24, 2021 18:32:47 GMT
Wow treeslicer, vituperative. Made me run to my dictionary app. Cool.
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Post by treeslicer on Jun 24, 2021 18:50:45 GMT
Wow treeslicer, vituperative. Made me run to my dictionary app. Cool. Settled which thread I was talking about, didn't it?
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Post by Eric Bergeron on Jun 24, 2021 19:07:34 GMT
Thank you all for the discussions, this is why I love forums, especially when a topic brings in lots of people to discuss different aspects of the topic at hand, which got me curious so I went out and ordered a 9260 mono tempered blade as I don't have one to compare it to my 1060 DH & T10 DH blades.
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Post by Student of Sword on Jun 24, 2021 19:11:52 GMT
Between through harden 1060, 9260, and 5160, most folks won't notice the different if all other things being equal.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jun 24, 2021 19:32:36 GMT
Between through harden 1060, 9260, and 5160, most folks won't notice the different if all other things being equal. Not at first anyways. The differences between TH steels will show themselves after some time and use. After they are sharpened a few times and cut hundreds of targets, then you will see a slight difference between them. Same with different alloys if DH blades: you really aren't going to see it until some time has passed. The most noticeable difference is between DH and TH. You can tell right away that they aren't the same.
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