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Post by notthesharpest on Apr 28, 2021 21:08:58 GMT
MichaelRS, I’ve been reading your posts and no matter how you’ve asked the question you’ve gotten the same (and good) answers over and over. I understand the trepidation of buying a first sword and wanting to get what you paid for and also not wanting to get ripped off. I think you need to figure out your budget and just buy a damn sword!😏 I hear you, Paul - the message all around has been buy from a reputable vendor and maker.
I get two impressions reading Michael's posts.
1. He is looking to find a bargain/go cheapie, for whatever reason, and does not want to get ripped-off.
2. He is confused by the terminology around heat-treatment.
Michael - Adventurer's Blade already covered this, but I will beat the horse that he killed, just for kicks.
The heat treatment of swords has varied over time and culture across the world. But, there are two broad categories of steps - hardening and tempering. Here is a simplified breakdown of them both.
Hardening is done by getting the rough-forged blade very hot and then quickly cooling it by quenching some portion of the blade in either oil, or water. With through-hardened blades (TH), it is the whole blade that is quenched. With differentially-hardened blades (DH), it is the edge and, maybe, the body of the blade that is quenched. (There are variations from just quenching the edge to covering the body of the blade in something, but leaving the edge bare, and heating/quenching the whole blade.) Both TH and DH make the quenched portion hard, which is desirable for edge retention. But, they also make the hardened portion of the blade brittle.
Tempering is a second process that is done after hardening. Basically, the hardened blade is heated at a lower temperature for a longer period of time, then allowed to cool down slowly. This removes some of the hardness, but also removes some of the brittleness. This step must be done in a TH blade. It is often skipped in the DH approach, since heat from the unquenched or covered portion of the blade seeps back into the hardened portion and sort of tempers it.
I have used a fair number of blades from much of South/South East Asia. Most were made with God-knows-what steel in workshops of varying levels of sophistication. I have had rolled edges, chipped edges, blade breakages and - somewhat scarier - tang breakages. (Wear your safety classes when cutting or working, btw.) In most of the catastrophic failures, heat treat was always the issue - there was very large steel grain visible in the broken pieces. In some of those cases the folks that I bought the blades from made good. In others, not so much.
OTOH, some of these blades have stood up to regular use for almost 20 years.
The point is, my experience matches the advice you are being given by just about everyone here. Look for a reputable brand from a reputable vendor. I'll stray from Paul's guidance a little and say choose your brand and vendor, save up a little more if you need to, then make your purchase.
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Post by MichaelRS on Apr 28, 2021 21:28:40 GMT
That was very interesting and thanks for all that work and effort in testing the blade and reporting on it. But I'm still not clear on one general point: You have all these. Vendors or forges or whatever out there offering a blade in X steel,say 1060. Are not these blades generally tempered, one way or the other, as a standard default practice in the manufacturing of the sword blade? Or can any number of them simply be like, "Here's a 1060 steel blank, let's just stamp it and grind it into a sword blade and screw the tempering. The imperialist running dogs will never know the difference." If a sword blade is truly left in an annealed state or overhardened and not tempered, any of us will know immediately when we actually put it through the kinds of tests we do in reviews (cutting, chopping things, flexing). More likely is spotty quality control the cheaper you go, because yes, lemons happen and they happen more often with cheaper blades. So that's why we like to do reviews and stick to known names for manufacturers and vendors, because they've shown a history of reliability. They should all be tempered to a useable extent. Some better than others. There are exceptions - there are vendors who explicitly sell untempered versions of their swords as cheaper options for reenactment or whatever, but the ethical ones label them as such. Thank you. THAT was useful/helpful information.
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Post by MichaelRS on Apr 28, 2021 21:53:56 GMT
MichaelRS, I’ve been reading your posts and no matter how you’ve asked the question you’ve gotten the same (and good) answers over and over. I understand the trepidation of buying a first sword and wanting to get what you paid for and also not wanting to get ripped off. I think you need to figure out your budget and just buy a damn sword!😏 I hear you, Paul - the message all around has been buy from a reputable vendor and maker.
I get two impressions reading Michael's posts.
1. He is looking to find a bargain/go cheapie, for whatever reason, and does not want to get ripped-off.
2. He is confused by the terminology around heat-treatment.
Michael - Adventurer's Blade already covered this, but I will beat the horse that he killed, just for kicks.
The heat treatment of swords has varied over time and culture across the world. But, there are two broad categories of steps - hardening and tempering. Here is a simplified breakdown of them both.
Hardening is done by getting the rough-forged blade very hot and then quickly cooling it by quenching some portion of the blade in either oil, or water. With through-hardened blades (TH), it is the whole blade that is quenched. With differentially-hardened blades (DH), it is the edge and, maybe, the body of the blade that is quenched. (There are variations from just quenching the edge to covering the body of the blade in something, but leaving the edge bare, and heating/quenching the whole blade.) Both TH and DH make the quenched portion hard, which is desirable for edge retention. But, they also make the hardened portion of the blade brittle.
Tempering is a second process that is done after hardening. Basically, the hardened blade is heated at a lower temperature for a longer period of time, then allowed to cool down slowly. This removes some of the hardness, but also removes some of the brittleness. This step must be done in a TH blade. It is often skipped in the DH approach, since heat from the unquenched or covered portion of the blade seeps back into the hardened portion and sort of tempers it.
I have used a fair number of blades from much of South/South East Asia. Most were made with God-knows-what steel in workshops of varying levels of sophistication. I have had rolled edges, chipped edges, blade breakages and - somewhat scarier - tang breakages. (Wear your safety classes when cutting or working, btw.) In most of the catastrophic failures, heat treat was always the issue - there was very large steel grain visible in the broken pieces. In some of those cases the folks that I bought the blades from made good. In others, not so much.
OTOH, some of these blades have stood up to regular use for almost 20 years.
The point is, my experience matches the advice you are being given by just about everyone here. Look for a reputable brand from a reputable vendor. I'll stray from Paul's guidance a little and say choose your brand and vendor, save up a little more if you need to, then make your purchase.
Okay, thank you for actual information that is useful. It answers the question I was asking, or at least I thought i was asking, much better than "Just buy from a reputable dealer", as I was trying to understand the process. But I don't understand why people with knowledge and experience in the area would get angry and frustrated with a novice who wants some actual information. If it upsets them that much to try to teach a newbie coming with their hat in their hand to ask some basic questions, then they should just ignore the thread and be content within themselves that they are the superior person in the field. I don't understand the NEED to make people new to the field to feel inadequate or stupid. And yes, being on a fixed retirement income, I do look to get the most bang for my buck. Thank you once again
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Apr 28, 2021 22:01:03 GMT
Unfortunately, ulike Adventure's Blade and maybe yourself, I don't have the experience or knowledge, despite watching dozens videos by Matthew Jensen and others, to judge it by putting it through its paces. As I was about to say that you can set there forever and theorize but until you get your feet wet you will know next to nothing, perhaps repeat a phrase like a parrot. I’m sure that you’ll like your katana and would like to know your thoughts after it arrives. Paul gave good advice. Since I’ve spent the last 1½-2 hours on this I might as well finish. You frown on the lower end steels while everyone states tempering is the key note. I made the following quick video using my first two katanas. I knew nothing at the time except I wanted one and one with a real hamon but they were out of my price range until Musashi came up with one at $89 and had to have it. At the time what I wanted was about $400. That Musashi was clay tempered 1060 steel. I loved it and still have it. I can’t remember how I came by it but about 6 month later I ended up with a Marashiro blade and some parts and assembled that one. I am guessing at 1045 steel and had a wire brushed hamon. Over time with polishing the hamon disappeared, thank goodness. I think I had about $50 in that one. They were both good economical learning experiences. I learned much at a low price and fully enjoyed them. They are as tight today as when received and cut well. I made a video of each cutting a gallon jug. I am short of targets as I received a kukri and machete last week. As for fruit, that was tempting as we bought a pineapple at the market this morning. But if I used that I’d feel Hazel’s wrath. Besides I couldn’t cut it anyway. Being brought up at the tail end of the depression and immediately followed by the war time rationing I was taught not to waste food and that was reinforced later when I knew hungry. That pineapple will feed us for two maybe three breakfasts supplemented with coffee and toast. I had a few other targets but chose the most challenging, which was no contest. Your best bet is to buy from a reputable forge through a reputable vendor.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Apr 29, 2021 0:08:00 GMT
... But I don't understand why people with knowledge and experience in the area would get angry and frustrated with a novice who wants some actual information. If it upsets them that much to try to teach a newbie coming with their hat in their hand to ask some basic questions, then they should just ignore the thread and be content within themselves that they are the superior person in the field. I don't understand the NEED to make people new to the field to feel inadequate or stupid. ... The only frustration I'm having with your questions is my own inability to put into simple words something that is rather complicated. it involves an understanding of metallurgy, manufacturing processes, and international concepts of quality management. The answer you are seeking is indeed "buy from a reputable maker", but getting to that answer isn't a direct and simple path. I don't mind your questions. With each question you ask you are getting closer to understanding. But you won't connect the dots until you actually have a sword (or two, or three...) in hand and start your journey into this hobby proper. Until then, don't let people worry you, and sometimes how things are written can come off as being dismissive or angry, when in reality it isn't meant that way at all. So you can ask any questions you like, I will do my best to give you the answer I think is simple enough to understand. And I apologize if I miss the mark.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Apr 29, 2021 1:37:33 GMT
At least it looks like they had a native English speaker write the ad copy. They did, because that's one of Budk's sites and Sokojikara is one of their Longquan import brands. So it would have been a guy in Georgia writing it. Honestly the Budk Longquan swords (Shikoto, Sokojikara) are a pretty safe choice. Customer service is stateside if there's an issue.
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Post by MichaelRS on Apr 29, 2021 2:13:10 GMT
... But I don't understand why people with knowledge and experience in the area would get angry and frustrated with a novice who wants some actual information. If it upsets them that much to try to teach a newbie coming with their hat in their hand to ask some basic questions, then they should just ignore the thread and be content within themselves that they are the superior person in the field. I don't understand the NEED to make people new to the field to feel inadequate or stupid. ... The only frustration I'm having with your questions is my own inability to put into simple words something that is rather complicated. it involves an understanding of metallurgy, manufacturing processes, and international concepts of quality management. The answer you are seeking is indeed "buy from a reputable maker", but getting to that answer isn't a direct and simple path. I don't mind your questions. With each question you ask you are getting closer to understanding. But you won't connect the dots until you actually have a sword (or two, or three...) in hand and start your journey into this hobby proper. Until then, don't let people worry you, and sometimes how things are written can come off as being dismissive or angry, when in reality it isn't meant that way at all. So you can ask any questions you like, I will do my best to give you the answer I think is simple enough to understand. And I apologize if I miss the mark. Thank you. Much obliged. And as I said it myself, I also have the inability to articulate perhaps the proper question because but my own ignorance in many of those areas. But I appreciate your assistance.
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Post by notthesharpest on Apr 29, 2021 13:04:56 GMT
Hey, Michael
I reread my post, and I apologize. I was not trying to put you down, but I was frustrated - and that comes through.
The way I read your posts, you seemed to be looking for purchase guidance. But, with all of the questions, I definitely got the idea that, more specifically, you were after some x-factor that would let you score some super bargain. In the meantime, Adventurer's Blade, Rufus, pgandy, Paul, and the rest were giving you valuable advice on things that I learned the hard way over the years. I got grumpy because, as I saw it, you were not seeing the gold that was being offered to you.
Regards,
NtS
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Post by paulmuaddib on Apr 29, 2021 15:23:58 GMT
Hey, Michael I reread my post, and I apologize. I was not trying to put you down, but I was frustrated - and that comes through. The way I read your posts, you seemed to be looking for purchase guidance. But, with all of the questions, I definitely got the idea that, more specifically, you were after some x-factor that would let you score some super bargain. In the meantime, Adventurer's Blade, Rufus, pgandy, Paul, and the rest were giving you valuable advice on things that I learned the hard way over the years. I got grumpy because, as I saw it, you were not seeing the gold that was being offered to you. Regards, NtS Guess I’ll apologize also. Like notthrsharpest I saw lots of great info being given to you and you not seeming to appreciate/understand it. I also reread my post and see I came off a little (or maybe a lot) snippy. Maybe I hadn’t had my coffee yet, I don’t know. Believe me I’ve been where your at and a lot seemed confusing. Still does (japanese terms, ahhg!). Hang in there and I’ll try to do better.
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Post by MichaelRS on Apr 29, 2021 15:57:36 GMT
Thank you everyone. I very much appreciate you reaching out. I read and appreciate all constructive advice of any type.
As I said, my own inability and ignorance in the area probably prevented me from asking the "right" questions to get answers to do the particular subject matter I was asking about, or trying to anyway. But, I appreciate everybody's effort. Thanks again
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Apr 29, 2021 16:16:41 GMT
Something I've observed over the last decade is that the members of this forum have become a lot more sophisticated and knowledgeable as collectors - the forum started as a sub-$300 backyard cutter guide with people using accusharps on their Windlasses and trying to cut pool noodles with Deepeekas. Now there's tons more options on the market and most of the frequent posters here own much higher end swords than back in the day. There's also tons more info and general awareness about HEMA and swords due, in large part, to YouTubers like Skallagrim.
So sometimes it's difficult to hit the reset button here and explain something at the newcomer level. But that still IS the purpose of the forum to me. And I think I heard someone say once that true mastery is to take a complex subject and explain it in the simplest and clearest way possible.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Apr 29, 2021 17:15:12 GMT
I think the issue here is that the OP accepts the answer we gave him, but is seeking to understand WHY that is the answer. He doesn't have the knowledge to ask the right questions, but he is learning every day. And truth be told, this hobby has an abundance of anecdotal information and little documented research. At least as far as it's concerned with buying a modern production sword. There are no set rules on how one should be made and certainly no governing body that would enforce any such standards were they to exist.
It's the anecdotal information that contains the most useful information. The collective experience of the sword community acts as a defacto research team. When the collective says "buy x, y, or z brand" it's implied that those brands have shown themselves to have attributes that make them worth owning. Unfortunately, I think the OP is looking for some more technical based information on which to make decisions, and good luck finding that. Even the so-called "destructive tests" done on YouTube are little more than somebody beating a sword until it breaks, but gathering no scientifically actionable data in the process. Hell, I can break an M1A1 main battle tank, what chance does a sword have?
Add on top of that the confusing and sometimes contradictory advertising from the forges and distributors, and pop culture mythologies, and you have a hodge-podge of information that is largely useless because there is no way to verify it. I can certainly see where a newbie would have one eye pointed north and the other eye pointed west in a case like that.
We all started out knowing only two things: jack and semprini. Sometimes it's hard to remember what that was like.
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Post by MichaelRS on Apr 29, 2021 18:33:00 GMT
Thank you AB & RS. Yeah pretty much all of that, in no particular order, is how it's all rolling around and my noggin.
On the bright side there is progress, because I believe I have gained that much better understanding of things over the last couple of days.
THANKS TO ALL.
BTW, can photos be posted to these threads with mobile devices? I'm thinking about when my HanBon sword finally gets here and I "review" it.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Apr 29, 2021 18:57:09 GMT
You can post photos but it's a bit of an ordeal. Switch to desktop mode by clicking at the bottom of the mobile page. Add attachments in the top right of your post. Photos must be under 1 MB.
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Post by MichaelRS on Apr 29, 2021 22:00:40 GMT
You can post photos but it's a bit of an ordeal. Switch to desktop mode by clicking at the bottom of the mobile page. Add attachments in the top right of your post. Photos must be under 1 MB. Thanks very much
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Post by treeslicer on Apr 30, 2021 5:29:25 GMT
Something I've observed over the last decade is that the members of this forum have become a lot more sophisticated and knowledgeable as collectors - the forum started as a sub-$300 backyard cutter guide with people using accusharps on their Windlasses and trying to cut pool noodles with Deepeekas. Now there's tons more options on the market and most of the frequent posters here own much higher end swords than back in the day. There's also tons more info and general awareness about HEMA and swords due, in large part, to YouTubers like Skallagrim. So sometimes it's difficult to hit the reset button here and explain something at the newcomer level. But that still IS the purpose of the forum to me. And I think I heard someone say once that true mastery is to take a complex subject and explain it in the simplest and clearest way possible. I most certainly did. I pointed the OP at my Ryujin 1060 Hatamoto review. Photos of perfect bamboo cuts and a gallon bleach bottle sliced as cleanly as a tomato in a kitchen should settle the question of whether or not a 1060 sword can cut, better than a thousand words of metallurgy.
/rant What I personally find aggravating is that, while many members have spent years piling up knowledge in forum topics, some new members post questions which have been answered hundreds of times before, without looking through a forum (or the associated blogs/articles) to learn what the resident hive mind has already answered. Granted, those who do (and they may be legion) will never come to our collective attention.
I post on numerous forums on a variety of subjects, and SBG isn't the only place where this occurs regularly. It's a general problem, and seems to have gotten worse with the spread of smartphones. \rant
IMHO, having a read-only FAQ subforum that guests and new members get ushered to upon arrival, might help them find information they are hunting, more easily. Just a thought.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2021 11:07:03 GMT
There are usually some that will answer the same question, time and again. That is a que to simply walk away.
Facebook has become worse, even in the more dedicated groups.
A problem with putting newcomers in some sort of cattle chute is that there are some that do read more than they post. I'm not going to use Michael as an example of lazy, but at the same time on a phone, may be more likely to watch videos than scroll through pages of threads.
There is generally a newcomer every month or so when they are asking good questions. It is just the same questions some of us see time and again, month after month.
A sad truth I'll only get chastised for again is that the motto of SBG that I continue to see is that having fun is more important than being correct. In other words, put a whole menu of FAQ sections in every room and newcomers will continue to ask the questions already found in those FAQ sections. Then you have the latest authorities explaining what they know. Divide that by those truly knowledgeable and labeled as snobs. Why should we waste our time?
My first replies to Michael were brief and when asking for clarification as to the best fb groups my reply was "....Japanese swords or Japanese style swords?" A somewhat taken aback response was enough for me, so as not to suggest more serious groups discussing Japanese swords.
At any rate, lots of new threads and activity. The learning curve generally stops around the point some have a couple of swords and have it all figured out. Some so excited and passionate after a year that they tutor me on subjects I've studied for a long, long time.
Happy Hunting Michael
GC
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Apr 30, 2021 11:50:49 GMT
That was my #1 peeve on another forum that I was a moderator, a subject that had been discussed countless times and a new member with their first post “what is the best...” as though there is such a thing as ‘best’. Reading seems to be a lost art when such things as TV, Facebook and YouTube exist. I stay away from FB except to monitor my family. As for YouTube anyone with a camera seems to be an expert and unfortunately is believed too many times. The instance that pops into my head immediately on that is chap that cleaned his blade with acid because of YouTube and then came here for advice on repairing. I not only see the lack of reading evident on forums but newspapers. I’ve seen many disappear. “Tico Times” stopped publishing a hard copy but now has a website covering less than formally. 20 years ago “La Nación” had a thick daily paper for ¢200 that was held together with staples. Now it’s ¢450 and so thin that my dog can go through one in a day.
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Post by MichaelRS on Apr 30, 2021 18:01:28 GMT
My first replies to Michael were brief and when asking for clarification as to the best fb groups my reply was "....Japanese swords or Japanese style swords?" A somewhat taken aback response was enough for me, so as not to suggest more serious groups discussing Japanese swords.[br Hunting Michael GC I'm trying to figure out what you thought was so off-putting by my response to that post? You asked me if I meant Japanese swords or Japanese style swords. I had no idea what you were talking about, as if the distinction between the two it might be some verbal nuance that I was not aware of. Such as, was I asking about Japanese swords, meaning swords that are made in Japan and therefore are REAL Japanese swords, or were you making a distinction about all the ones they make in China, which are could be considered Japanese STYLE swords. I thought my question was rather straightforward, but when you came back with that Japanese swords vs. Japanese STYLE swords it put doubt in my mind. And yes, I can read just fine. Even though my history degree was granted 35 years ago, it did involve some reading and I have not forgotten how. However when I scroll back 6 or 7 months and don't see a similar question being answered with the information I want, ask it anew. Which to some seems like the same old question being asked again, but to me it's not because there's something in the answers that I found missing. Yes, I could go back further and further and further, but where do I stop depending on the question? Certain questions may have been answered in 2015, but is that information currently correct? And as I say, if somebody is sooo bothered by it, they are free to ignore the thread/question rather than engaging in personal attacks, direct OR veiled.
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Post by swordenthusiast on Apr 30, 2021 19:26:05 GMT
Regarding being frustrated by an age-old question from a newbie, why do you visit and comment on something in the beginners forum if it frustrates you so much? Aren't we all just here to help one another out?
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