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Post by MichaelRS on Apr 26, 2021 16:47:43 GMT
So if one is not going to be a serious cutter, that is to say not constantly cutting hard targets like bamboo or whatever, maybe just some pool noodles, a little fruit and the odd rolled-up newspaper now and then... is a regular untempered 1060 blade good enough?
Or in short order are you going to screw up the blade because it's not clay tempered or what have you?
Because frankly if I can get away with NOT ordering a 1095 clay tempered blade for an extra 100 or $200, depending on where you order from, I wouldn't mind doing that.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Apr 26, 2021 16:54:16 GMT
That's painting with a broad brush. Tempering comes in many forms, clay tempering being one. I would suspect that even cheaper swords are at least through hardened, where the tempering is even throughout the entire structure vs. differential hardening where the blade is tempered, but the edge is hardened further using an additional step.
Clay tempering cost more because of the extra labor involved, but a through hardened sword is quite capable of performing all the tasks you stated. An untempered sword would be too soft and bend on the first cut most likely.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Apr 26, 2021 16:58:46 GMT
a truly untempered blade will break like glass when drop to the floor.
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Post by MichaelRS on Apr 26, 2021 19:00:33 GMT
Okay, thanks for clearing that up.
I guess it's hard to ask the right questions when you don't know what the heck you're talking about and can't use the right terms because of it. Sorry.
I was using the term "tempered" and "clay tempered" to mean the same thing...at least in my head it was. But since you guys are not in my head you wouldnt know that. 😁
So I'm guessing that the basic 1060 blades that a lot of these vendors offer as their starting price for a "custom sword" is mono tempered or whatever?
In some of the articles and YouTube presentations I'm left with the impression that unless you get a 1095 clay tempered blade, don't waste your money because you're just buying junk you pretty much can't do anything without about destroying your blade.
Also why do you think a lot of these people do not offer CLAY TEMPERING clay tempering with their 1045 or 1060 blades? I mean I imagine they would do it if you asked them to, but most the time the default offers are to have it done on a 1095 blade or equivalent or better.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Apr 26, 2021 23:44:47 GMT
There's a lot to unpack there. All real swords have been hardened and then tempered in some form. The two primary methods are monotempered,or through-hardened, and differential temper. Clay tempered means a differential temper achieved through covering part of the blade with clay to slow its cooling rate. It is the traditional method of tempering a katana.
Monotempered blades are more durable overall and less likely to suffer serious damage on a bad cut. Differentially tempered blades stay sharp longer. Either way is fine if the sword itself is well made.
1045 and 1060 blades don't get as hard as 1095 or T10 blades because they have lower carbon content. So you can get decent springy blades out of them that have okay edges but it's kind of pointless to try to clay temper them. Honestly I don't even bother with 1045, most of them end up too soft and too likely to stay bent instead of flexing. I had one once. All my swords made from 1055 to 1075 have been ideal.
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Post by MichaelRS on Apr 27, 2021 2:28:27 GMT
There's a lot to unpack there. All real swords have been hardened and then tempered in some form. The two primary methods are monotempered,or through-hardened, and differential temper. Clay tempered means a differential temper achieved through covering part of the blade with clay to slow its cooling rate. It is the traditional method of tempering a katana. Monotempered blades are more durable overall and less likely to suffer serious damage on a bad cut. Differentially tempered blades stay sharp longer. Either way is fine if the sword itself is well made. 1045 and 1060 blades don't get as hard as 1095 or T10 blades because they have lower carbon content. So you can get decent springy blades out of them that have okay edges but it's kind of pointless to try to clay temper them. Honestly I don't even bother with 1045, most of them end up too soft and too likely to stay bent instead of flexing. I had one once. All my swords made from 1055 to 1075 have been ideal. Thanks very much. I appreciate the clarification. I mentioned 1045 because, and now I can't remember where, but I know in ALL the stuff I've been looking through the last couple of weeks a couple of guys have said they have old 1045 blades and they've just been performing wonderfully for light cutting. But basically some of those questions were not answered for me Bentyl I'm asking here. I do get that 1045 is that really all that great and probably the bottom line, to what is commonly available and offered, is 1060+. Yours is the first I heard mention of 1055, but I have heard others talking about 1070 or 80 something. So the bottom line what I'm hearing with the 1045s to 1060s is that it's pretty much a wasted wasted effort, for little or no good return, to bother with the clay tempering.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Apr 27, 2021 6:17:46 GMT
Yeah, I don't know, maybe someone's had success with differentially hardened 1060. But the price gap is small enough to get to 1090+ that you'll usually see that.
1045 can be fine for cutting. If anything it's at least safe to use and should bend instead of breaking. Probably most cheap 1045 swords of today are better than the majority of swords made throughout history. But again, it's such a small gap to buy 1060.
Cold Steel uses a lot of 1055. I've found those very tough and springy with adequate edges.
Condor machetes are 1075 and perform very well.
Then there's 1084, which companies don't seem to use much but is very popular in amateur knifemaking. I have used it to make blades.
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Post by MichaelRS on Apr 27, 2021 7:58:42 GMT
Yeah, I don't know, maybe someone's had success with differentially hardened 1060. But the price gap is small enough to get to 1090+ that you'll usually see that. 1045 can be fine for cutting. If anything it's at least safe to use and should bend instead of breaking. Probably most cheap 1045 swords of today are better than the majority of swords made throughout history. But again, it's such a small gap to buy 1060. Cold Steel uses a lot of 1055. I've found those very tough and springy with adequate edges. Condor machetes are 1075 and perform very well. Then there's 1084, which companies don't seem to use much but is very popular in amateur knifemaking. I have used it to make blades. Well, I was looking around at this and today and Ronin Katana on their lower end blade supposedly offers clay tempered 1045 for $139. Don't know how good they are. I think Matthew Jensen did a review on them. I'll have to double-check. Though I didn't notice any way to customize them, so it's just whatever they offer looks-wise.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Apr 27, 2021 9:03:25 GMT
Afaik in nihonto the tamahagane steel has 1 - 1,5 % carbon as a raw steel bloom but after folding and forging the blade steel has ca. 0,7 % carbon. That's not much difference to 1060. 1045 doesn't allow a very hard edges (> 55 RHC) but it is also tougher than steels with more carbon. The problem is that 1045 is used for cheap swords and cheap swords often have a cheap heat treatment too. Many forges use the steel that is easier to work with and produces less failures with heat treatment and not "the best blade steel".
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Apr 27, 2021 11:48:05 GMT
Tempered and clay hardening are not the same. “In some of the articles and YouTube presentations I'm left with the impression that unless you get a 1095 clay tempered blade, don't waste your money because you're just buying junk you pretty much can't do anything without about destroying your blade.” Is false. Clay tempering is offered on 1060 blades. I have one by Musashi that I’ve enjoyed for 15 years more or so. Here’s the URL for katanas at True Swords for your browsing. They are a good company to deal with. www.trueswords.com/Search.aspx?search=katana%20sword Here’s one specifically for clay tempered 1060 steel with a 55 HRC. www.trueswords.com/Samurai-Musashi-Clay-Tempered-Katana-Sword-30323 PS True Swords measures katatna length not to include the habaki which is about 1", unless they have changed. As for 1060 good enough again it’s tempering, tempering. CS uses 1055 to a large extent. I have several of their machetes and none have failed.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Apr 27, 2021 12:41:59 GMT
Once again, good for what? What are the attributes of the finished product that you are looking for? Do you want a razor edge? Then you need DH (or clay hardening), but the edge will be prone to chipping. Do you want Soviet tractor toughness? Then you want a mono tempered (or through hardened) 9260, but don't think it's going to be easy to sharpen. Do you want a beater blade that is easy to sharpen and can be used all day? Then TH 1055 or similar, but don't expect it to hold an edge for long.
Every kind of steel, when it's properly heat treated, will perform adequately in a sword. The only real difference is in the final attributes of the blade - edge retention, corrosion resistance, etc. And even those, more often than not, are hard to see between blades unless you use them a lot and have the experience to see the differences (which can sometimes be so small as to make no difference)
When it comes to swords, there are only really two main things to consider, TH (through hardened) or DH (differential or clay hardened). The first will not have a hamon and not retain the edge as well, but is easily repaired and resistant to chipping, the DH blades will have a hamon and be razor sharp at the expense of being susceptible to chipping.
The kind of steel used isn't really that important, as has been stated previously. Proper heat treatment is the paramount factor in whether or not a sword is going to hold up under use or not. A properly heat treated TH 1045 is much better than a botched 1095 DH.
And the only real way to be sure of the quality of the heat treating process is by the reputation of the maker. To test heat treating and hardening requires laboratory equipment which is outside the price range of most hobbyists. There is no sure way to determine the heat treat using home processes or by visual inspections, unless the blade just shatters by dropping it on the floor or something grossly obvious like that. That is why forum members say over and over again to buy from reputable vendors and forges and to avoid the no-names.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Apr 27, 2021 15:19:27 GMT
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Post by RufusScorpius on Apr 27, 2021 17:10:35 GMT
At least it looks like they had a native English speaker write the ad copy.
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Post by MichaelRS on Apr 27, 2021 21:02:45 GMT
Once again, good for what? What are the attributes of the finished product that you are looking for? Do you want a razor edge? Then you need DH (or clay hardening), but the edge will be prone to chipping. Do you want Soviet tractor toughness? Then you want a mono tempered (or through hardened) 9260, but don't think it's going to be easy to sharpen. Do you want a beater blade that is easy to sharpen and can be used all day? Then TH 1055 or similar, but don't expect it to hold an edge for long. Every kind of steel, when it's properly heat treated, will perform adequately in a sword. The only real difference is in the final attributes of the blade - edge retention, corrosion resistance, etc. And even those, more often than not, are hard to see between blades unless you use them a lot and have the experience to see the differences (which can sometimes be so small as to make no difference) When it comes to swords, there are only really two main things to consider, TH (through hardened) or DH (differential or clay hardened). The first will not have a hamon and not retain the edge as well, but is easily repaired and resistant to chipping, the DH blades will have a hamon and be razor sharp at the expense of being susceptible to chipping. The kind of steel used isn't really that important, as has been stated previously. Proper heat treatment is the paramount factor in whether or not a sword is going to hold up under use or not. A properly heat treated TH 1045 is much better than a botched 1095 DH. And the only real way to be sure of the quality of the heat treating process is by the reputation of the maker. To test heat treating and hardening requires laboratory equipment which is outside the price range of most hobbyists. There is no sure way to determine the heat treat using home processes or by visual inspections, unless the blade just shatters by dropping it on the floor or something grossly obvious like that. That is why forum members say over and over again to buy from reputable vendors and forges and to avoid the no-names. Well, as far as performance goes, I want one that's "good enough" to slice through pool noodles and fruit, on the level of watermelon or pineapple excetera, and can hold an edge for a wee bit for such use before I have to sharpen it. And never mind the clay tempering, are all these 1060 blades that these manufacturers are selling not tempered in some normal or usual manner for sword steel?
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Post by treeslicer on Apr 28, 2021 5:16:57 GMT
If that doesn't settle it, I don't know what can.
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Post by MichaelRS on Apr 28, 2021 16:18:52 GMT
If that doesn't settle it, I don't know what can.
That was very interesting and thanks for all that work and effort in testing the blade and reporting on it. But I'm still not clear on one general point: You have all these. Vendors or forges or whatever out there offering a blade in X steel,say 1060. Are not these blades generally tempered, one way or the other, as a standard default practice in the manufacturing of the sword blade? Or can any number of them simply be like, "Here's a 1060 steel blank, let's just stamp it and grind it into a sword blade and screw the tempering. The imperialist running dogs will never know the difference."
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Post by RufusScorpius on Apr 28, 2021 16:38:54 GMT
... You have all these. Vendors or forges or whatever out there offering a blade in X steel,say 1060. Are not these blades generally tempered, one way or the other, as a standard default practice in the manufacturing of the sword blade? Or can any number of them simply be like, "Here's a 1060 steel blank, let's just stamp it and grind it into a sword blade and screw the tempering. The imperialist running dogs will never know the difference." I can answer that with a solid and definite maybe. As stated, the composition of the steel is not very important at the end of the day. Why? Because there is absolutely no way whatsoever that you, as the end consumer, can possibly know what actual steel you have in your hand. The forge may advertise a Kryptonite and Adamantium blend, but give you 1045. You won't know. Nor will you know with any certainly if the steel is 1055, T10, or 1095, not after it's been worked. And the Chinese forges are all family businesses and have sketchy quality control methods, if any at all. Unless you fly to China yourself, locate the forge, and then sample test their raw bar stock, there is no way you can be sure of what they are using. And to be brutally honest, they might not know or care what they are using either. More often than not, the alloy specification is for marketing purposes only. Now the heat treating is something altogether different. You can't hide whether or not a chuck of steel has been properly heat treated. We, as collectors and hobbyists, have ways of finding out. Generally it's done through usage of the sword and determining how "tough" it is when used on targets and over time. This is why the reputation of the maker is ever so much more important than the advertised composition of the steel. A manufacturer with a good reputation in the industry will generally have better and more consistent heat treating than lower end or no-name forges. And yes, it's quite possible that the highest rated makers might be using steel below what they advertise yet providing proper tempering, but if their stuff is solid, then who cares? The makers such as Albion and the guys doing boutique work will actually sell you what they advertise as far as the steel is concerned and it will be properly heat treated. But they aren't the same as your typical production sword coming out of China. It's apples to oranges in that case. But so are the price differences. I hope this clears it up a bit. Sadly, quality control and truth in advertising is a constant pox on the sword community. Even if it's discovered that one of the Chinses forges is lying about the steel or giving shoddy heat treating, there is zero that anybody can or will do about it.
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Post by paulmuaddib on Apr 28, 2021 18:28:52 GMT
MichaelRS, I’ve been reading your posts and no matter how you’ve asked the question you’ve gotten the same (and good) answers over and over. I understand the trepidation of buying a first sword and wanting to get what you paid for and also not wanting to get ripped off. I think you need to figure out your budget and just buy a damn sword!😏
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Apr 28, 2021 18:32:25 GMT
If that doesn't settle it, I don't know what can.
That was very interesting and thanks for all that work and effort in testing the blade and reporting on it. But I'm still not clear on one general point: You have all these. Vendors or forges or whatever out there offering a blade in X steel,say 1060. Are not these blades generally tempered, one way or the other, as a standard default practice in the manufacturing of the sword blade? Or can any number of them simply be like, "Here's a 1060 steel blank, let's just stamp it and grind it into a sword blade and screw the tempering. The imperialist running dogs will never know the difference." If a sword blade is truly left in an annealed state or overhardened and not tempered, any of us will know immediately when we actually put it through the kinds of tests we do in reviews (cutting, chopping things, flexing). More likely is spotty quality control the cheaper you go, because yes, lemons happen and they happen more often with cheaper blades. So that's why we like to do reviews and stick to known names for manufacturers and vendors, because they've shown a history of reliability. They should all be tempered to a useable extent. Some better than others. There are exceptions - there are vendors who explicitly sell untempered versions of their swords as cheaper options for reenactment or whatever, but the ethical ones label them as such.
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Post by MichaelRS on Apr 28, 2021 21:00:12 GMT
MichaelRS, I’ve been reading your posts and no matter how you’ve asked the question you’ve gotten the same (and good) answers over and over. I understand the trepidation of buying a first sword and wanting to get what you paid for and also not wanting to get ripped off. I think you need to figure out your budget and just buy a damn sword!😏 Well, I've already ordered the sword two weeks ago. Supposedly a 9260. So come what may at this point. But no, my question really was not answered until just recently in the post by Adventurers'Blade. Probably my fault for not knowing how to ask it properly and not knowing what process is common to the manufacturer of all the blades. Unfortunately, ulike Adventure's Blade and maybe yourself, I don't have the experience or knowledge, despite watching dozens videos by Matthew Jensen and others, to judge it by putting it through its paces.
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