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Post by YlliwCir on Sept 10, 2008 18:45:12 GMT
I dunno, Billiam, could the Mcleads be considered western swordsmen since they primarily used Katana? If going down that road, it's be Conan.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2008 18:54:51 GMT
Conan isn't western though... last I checked, he's from a planet that's not earth..
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2008 19:08:47 GMT
The character Conan is from Cimmeria, which was a real place just over the Black Sea. That area is rich in Iron Ore. It has a black beach and if you go there with a magnet you will be able to pick up grain size iron fragments on the surface. It is likely that the iron age would have started very early there. The earliest recorded date of the Cimmerians is 721 bc, but that is just what is recorded. They may go back past 2000 bc. The last record is around 515 bc. Those people were nomadic and extended as the way to Afganistan. So in the movie it was accurate they they used both forest and dessert tarain, plus some Asian influences. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians
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Post by YlliwCir on Sept 10, 2008 19:52:58 GMT
Thanks for the info, Tsafa. The following is from the wiki article about the fictional character Conan created by Robert E. Howard;
The various stories of Conan the Barbarian occur in the fictional "Hyborian Age," set after the destruction of Atlantis and before the rise of the known ancient civilizations. This is a specific epoch in a fictional timeline created by Howard for many of the low fantasy tales of his artificial legendary.
I think the reference to Atlantis, a legendary island first mentioned in Plato's dialogues Timaeus and Critias, places Conans adventures on our own earthly soil if indeed in a fictional time.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2008 20:24:41 GMT
The point is yours.
Although, if we can allow the Hyborian Age, we can also use the geopolitical boundaries that were before europe. Specifically when certain countries named Florin and Guilder were the two prominent powers in the area.
The Spaniard Inigo Montoya could destroy any of the above.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2008 20:31:31 GMT
The story goes that Solon spoke of the legend of Atlantis after traveling to Egypt. In Egypt he described a wall that he was shown with detail of Atlantis and describes how advanced the civilization was. Archeologists have identified this wall. The wall speaks of Ketchum that was very advanced with plumbing and other features. It seems that Solon chopped up the name. Ketchum was what the Egyptians called the Minoan Empire in modern Crete. Its colony was Stongili in Modern Santorini. Strongili was destroyed around 1600 by a volcanic eruption that was so powerful that it split the Island. This eruption caused a tsunami that devastated Crete. Interestingly enough, this all took place around the time Moses was bringing down plagues in Egypt, so that is one possible explanation for the upheaval in Egypt too. So if Atlantis is the Minoan Civilization that was ended by the Eruption in Santorini around 1600 and Cimmeria dates back to 2000 bc.... it actually fits . I do not believe that the relation between Crete and Atlanitis was know when Conan was filmed. Since Cimmeria likely existed before and after the Eruption at Santorini, the movie would have got that right either way. www.geology.sdsu.edu/how_volcanoes_work/santorini.htmlThe eruption at Santorini probably the most powerful geological event that has occurred during recorded human history. You would expect legends to rise up out of such an event.
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Post by alvin on Sept 10, 2008 20:36:20 GMT
OK....Now I think that you guys are pushing my leg !!! ![:D](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) PS - But that was some interesting reading about the Cimmerians and that Cimmeria is an ancient name for Crimea. Thanks for the posts.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2008 20:43:22 GMT
nope... that's history. Sometimes history is more amazing then fiction ![;)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2008 21:08:51 GMT
Wasn't krakatoa the most powerful volcanic eruption in history? Wait, quick research shows that more people died from the Mount Tambora eruption. Although that doesn't make it more powerful... Novarupta in Alaska apparently was pretty powerful, having affected the climate in africa...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2008 21:27:08 GMT
We don't know how many people died in the 1600 bc eruption, just that it split and Island the size of Manhattan. Anyone near it would have died. It is not the biggest one in history... just recorded human history as far as I know. The Eruption at Yellow Stone park 600,000 years ago had a mouth 20 to 30 miles wide. It cause massive extinctions on this side of the planet. It was probably not as explosive, it melted the surface inward and caused it to collapse. The smoke, gas and ashes would have blocked out the sun in a similar manor that the meteor that killed the dinosaurs did. It is speculated that the Yellow Stone eruption is the reason why we have so much top soil on this this side of the planet.
Krakatoa is up there but I don't think it split the island the way 1600 bc did. If you can find them, they do estimate the power of these eruptions in some units of measure. That would be a better way to compare.
Interestingly, both Yellow Stone and Santorini are still active.
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Sept 10, 2008 21:34:09 GMT
when yellow stone blows it will effect the whole planet
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2008 21:37:08 GMT
Dude... people worry about meteors and alien invasions while we are sitting on a timebomb. The lack of sunlight for a year would probably case famine on the other side of the Planet too.
The Earth has a life of its own and we are all just bacteria living on it.
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Post by swordboy bringer of chaos on Sept 10, 2008 21:38:59 GMT
ya'know!!! ![::)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png)
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Post by alvin on Sept 10, 2008 22:00:09 GMT
The Earth has a life of its own and we are all just bacteria living on it. Ain't thought of it quite like that....Maybe this thread's title should be changed to Most Prolific Western Swordsbacterium. ![;)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) I'd like to nominate Donald McTreponema pallidum, who has been responsible for much suffering and death. Although he never wrote a book, a lot has been written about him.
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Post by Jeff K. ( Jak) on Sept 11, 2008 0:41:04 GMT
What about Bob Anderson?...in truth I know very little of him other than he is highly sought after for training, and choreographing actors for the MOVIE industry. Now we all know how laughable the sword play is in MANY a film, but what of the man himself? Obviously a great teacher, most likely never killed anyone, but, yet a very well known name in different forms of the sword. Note: this is an inquiry, not a nomination ![;)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Jeff K. ( Jak) on Sept 11, 2008 2:39:20 GMT
Hundreds of confirmed kills Usually ends a duel - and the targets existence - in one strike Defeats multiple opponents at once Makes his enemies look like they're standing still...... THE most prolific western swordsman....ever. ![8-)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/cool.png)
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Post by YlliwCir on Sept 11, 2008 18:25:41 GMT
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women. Those are best in life.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Sept 11, 2008 18:54:38 GMT
In the movie I always thought it sounded a lot like Arnold was saying lamination of their women, which seems like a really odd thing to do to your enemies women.
If we're going to nominate Inigo Montoya then we should really include "I'm not left handed either" Westley.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2008 20:29:07 GMT
Well, if you've read the book, you know there's more than a couple subtleties to the duel.
It's all revealed later on when Westley has to dive into Snow Sand (not Lightning sand...) to save Buttercup. The author does a good job of drawing parallels between the man in black's encounter with the Sicilian Crowd and the Trials of the fire Swamp.
When he dives into the Snow Sand is the only instance where we get to hear Westley's inner monologue.
It reveals, not too subtly that Westley actually *isn't* the greatest thing in the world - he literally is facing the impossible. Vizzini actually *was* smarter than he, Fezzik actually *is* a better fighter and Inigo actually *is* a better fencer than he. It is only Westley Love that allows him to succeed where otherwise he would surely fail.
It's a strange form of reverse logic the author uses to rationalize Westley's competence. Basically it comes down to "That's impossible, but Westley has to do it anyway for no other reason than he HAS TO in order for him to Save Buttercup", or put another way "He HAS to do those things in order for the story to continue or make sense at all.
Back to the snow sand - the whole leading passage up to it and even during the encounter itself, the author sets up the impossibility of it. Even with Westley's wonderful plan of using a vine to pull himself back to the surface of the sand, it turns out the vine isn't long enough. He then says to himself that he doesn't have the strength, and that ascension beyond a mere foot or two powered only by the flailing of the limbs is not even to be hoped for - but he does it anyway - just because that's the only way to save Buttercup. In other words - he's not good enough, but his love and drive to save buttercup makes him succeed anyway.
Every single challenge Westley faces in the novel is like that - Impossible. But he does it anyway powered by this divine purpose to save Buttercup. At the end, once they get together, Westley basically loses that drive becasue he's already got his Buttercup. So unless Inigo were to kidnap her, westley would not have the capability to defeat him.
It's also stated in their duel in the novel that Inigo is by far a more well rounded swordsman - having clear advantage in every single area of the duel with the exception of on flat, unencumbered ground with no obstacles of any kind. Also, Westley knew Pirate tricks, which, in the sequal, it is implied he teaches to Inigo.
Besides - Inigo has won far more duels, as he lived off of beating people in duels for over 10 years, and westley was just a pirate for a few years and not dueling nearly as much as Inigo was. Therefore, Inigo is the more prolific swordsman.
Also, who doesn't know the phrase "hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
Far more well known than Conan.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2008 17:49:06 GMT
thanks for the great thread. I think we've got several candidates..... McBane, Liechtenauer, Silver, Kreussler. I don't know why people brought up Yoda, Conan or Montoya as I had intended this thread to be one for serious discussion. I think I'll do a little more research on these guys-hopefully serious research (eg not google). From what little I've read (wikipedia and such) I'm sort of leaning towards Mcbane or Kreussler.
Again, thanks!
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